T. KARPOVA: This is a very hard date for us. We're going to Dubrovka for the sixth year without changing the date, without changing the time, for the sixth year we're going to be there on the 26th, the day when the assault took place, from 10 to 12 we are gathering on the square. We never hold any rallies there, because, according to our generally accepted decision, we recognize the square in front of the Dubrovka theater center to be a symbolic mass grave, where 130 people were killed, including 10 minors. Today were a lot of people. A lot of concerned citizens from Moscow and the Moscow region came. Representatives from Beslan came, representatives from Volgodonsk and from Volgograd. All of them are with us. What I mean is, victims of similar attacks came to support us. Today we held a commemorative requiem concert, it lasted 35 minutes. It was rather large, because all the singer-songwriters and rock musicians involved in this concert had some connection with 'Nord-Ost'. They lost friends and relatives and loved ones there. So today we held a memorial, dedicated to the victims of the terrorist attack, but in a musical way. We listened to a song that the children of Beslan now sing after their tragedy. We believe this tragedy echoes 'Nord-Ost' because for 6 years we couldn't get our government to learn the necessary lessons from this tragedy, and so Beslan followed. We directed this song to the leaders of the (hostage rescue) headquarters, and former President Putin. We very much wanted him to hear what our children in the 21st century are singing about.

T. DZYADKO: Tell me please, Tatyana — this is a very important question — I remember very well, last year, the day before the anniversary of the Beslan events, you talked about your conversation with the officials from the Moscow city government, about whether they should postpone the 'City Day' or not. An important question — were there any government officials there today?

T. KARPOVA: Yes, we had the mayor's office today, headed by Lyudmila Ivanovna Shvetsova. There were representatives from almost all departments at City Hall. But, as you know, according to our adopted traditions, the mayor's office stood in the crowd alongside ordinary people. We had many representatives from the Southeast district and the South Port council district. All these government officials were in the square, and shared our grief. They brought armfuls of flowers. They brought wreaths. They stood with us and participated on equal terms with the victims of 'Nord-Ost'. None of them went up to the microphone, though. On this day we never give the microphone over to any flowery speeches, and we don't allow the square to be used symbolically by any of the political parties. All had representatives there, starting with United Russia, and ending with the 'Natsbols' (ed: Nationalist-Bolsheviks).

E. BUNTMAN: One can only say thank you that they came.

T. KARPOVA: Yes, because they came, we say thank you.

E. BUNTMAN: Tatyana, over the years we can now summarize some results, maybe not results, I understand that it is difficult to draw conclusions, but has anything come of all this? Let's say, for the last year. In the investigation, I mean.

T. KARPOVA: I will enjoy this. Maybe it will affect someone else, and they might become interested, but we believe that the Prosecutor General's Office has gone into hiding. I will say this to the entire country, using your channel.

T. DZYADKO: In what sense?

T. KARPOVA: Because for exactly a year they have not sent us a single message. We don't know whether they extended the 'Nord-Ost' case or not, and if they have, on what grounds has it been prolonged? What serious arguments motivated these extensions? We don't know. They just think it isn't necessary to have a conversation with us. And, naturally, we understand perfectly that the Prosecutor General is absolutely not interested in bringing the investigation to the desired stage. In our country no culprit in this terrorist attack will ever be punished — we are 200 percent confident of that. Because what was originally a criminal case is now being conducted as a terrorist attack. So it follows that the purpose of the prosecutor's office is to destroy all the terrorists who did it. They never opened a case of mass murder for Nord-Ost, Beslan, and other terrorist acts, and, consequently, it made no sense to look for those responsible. There aren't any. While we, of course, blame only the leaders of headquarters. We accuse the government, which, perhaps, carried out a commendable operation, we won't comment on the assault — whether or not it was necessary, this isn't our matter. But the fact is the hostages were simply abandoned, left to live or die all on their own. And they could just give a… sorry, our government could care less how many died after this terrorist attack. Everyone was written off quite calmly, with a wave of the hand, as necessary combat losses.

T. DZYADKO: We are talking with Tatyana Karpova, co-chair of the 'Nord-Ost' public organization promoting the protection of victims of terrorist acts, talking about today's anniversary of the terrorist attack on Dubrovka, and about how the investigation is moving along. You say that the Prosecutor General's Office went underground and doesn't wish to dialogue with you. What questions would you ask them, if you could?

T. KARPOVA: First of all, will the 'Nord-Ost' case be extended, or not?

E. BUNTMAN: At least this question.

T. KARPOVA: What was the motivation for the extension? We must know, because it's a clear violation of our civil rights. We are all open participants in the process of the criminal investigation. We are all recognized as victims, officially recognized, by the very same Prosecutor General's Office. Why don't we need to know what's going on? They are obliged to inform us about it. We must know the extension date. Or maybe they have already sent it off to the archives, and no one has deigned to let us know? They are silent about this.

T. DZYADKO: Just to clarify — you are recognized as victims. Are only those terrorists who carried out the seizure (of Dubrovka) recognized as defendants and suspects?

T. KARPOVA: Of course. Only the terrorists were guilty of this crime and they were all killed. And once all the terrorists were killed, then there was nobody to punish. Last year we tried to introduce new materials, to re-open it with circumstances, which can prove criminal negligence. That which we are accusing specific persons such as the heads of the headquarters: Ustinov, Patrushev, and General Tikhonov. We demanded an investigation. Do you know what's interesting? We have, besides certain facts of a crime, negligence documented by facts, not just with words, but also with documentary evidence and confirmed by the medics and so forth. We made a list of 45 people. They were willing to give testimony if the prosecutor's office made any kind of inquiry, conducted investigations and accepted their interviews. All were willing to testify.

E. BUNTMAN: But the prosecutors are not interested.

T. KARPOVA: They simply said: «No, we cannot add your materials to the criminal case, because there are no perpetrators, by definition, for prosecution.» Thus, the headquarters worked beautifully, all were save brilliantly, there aren't any newly discovered circumstances. Although personally, my family, we were given papers from the ambulance that transported my son's body. After the assault, 7 hours afterwards, at 11:45 my son's body temperature, at 11:45, once again I stress, 7 hours after the assault, his body had cooled by only one degree. He had been alive. In addition to everything I have, these documents from the ambulance state that the place of death was on board the ambulance. So, my son died there at 11:45. But where had he been (for 7 hours)? Where was he taken from? He was taken from a bus, from out of a body bag where he was laying for 7 hours among the corpses. Can I, as a mother, forgive such a horrible death of my son? I desire only one thing – as a law-biding citizen of my country, I sat and waited for assistance from the state, waited for assistance from Mr. Putin, because back then I still believed that in Russia we had a guarantor of human life, a guarantor of the Constitution. It turns out that human life here is worth nothing, not even a kopeck.

E. BUNTMAN: And how are you progressing with Strasbourg?

T. KARPOVA: We're at the first stage. The communication phase is nearing completion and we're waiting for our day in court. But here I must also tell an interesting story about our opponents, one again the Russian federals sent a petition to Strasbourg, or rather not even a petition, but a demand that, for the first time, probably ever, the 'Nord-Ost' case be heard behind closed doors. Can you imagine a human rights violation being heard behind closed doors? Apparently they're terribly afraid that some 'Nord-Ost' secret will somehow creep out. Our opponents, the federals, in their message to Strasbourg wrote that during the assault there was indeed a gas used, but it was only identified as a chemical substance. And they wrote that it was certainly harmless. How can they make such a conclusion, as to whether it was harmless or not, if neither our Russian federal forces, neither the president nor the prosecutors, none of them have figured out how the same gas poisoned our people, leaving 90% potential invalids?

E. BUNTMAN: But first we need some answers, and an investigation into what happened there.

T. KARPOVA: Naturally. But nobody wants to do it. Can you imagine that a year and a half after the 'Nord-Ost' tragedy, in early 2004, the investigation team that investigated the 'Nord-Ost' crime was completely dissolved by Prosecutor General's Office? And only a single investigator was entrusted with the case, the famous Detective Vladimir Ilyich Kalchuk. I thank him very much for having the patience investigate 'Nord-Ost' for five years on his own. But no matter what sort of genius he is, can any one person investigate a crime that ended — again I stress — with the death of 130 people, including 10 minors?

T. DZYADKO: Let's put it to a vote. I remind everyone that we're talking with Tatyana Karpova, talking about 'Nord-Ost', talking about the investigation. We want to ask our listeners: in their opinion, will we ever find out the truth about 'Nord-Ost'? I think one doesn't even need to say what we think if you heard Tatyana Karpova and heard about all the issues. If you think yes, we'll find out the truth, in Moscow dial 660–0664.

E. BUNTMAN: If you think that we'll never know the whole truth about 'Nord-Ost': 660–0665.

T. DZYADKO: Tatyana, you mentioned the former hostages. You say that 90% of them were disabled.

T. KARPOVA: Yes.

T. DZYADKO: This is the aftermath of the gas, or is it some kind of psychological…?

T. KARPOVA: Both. The point is, again, in the conclusions of the investigative group from the Prosecutor's Office, none of the 130 hostages died from the gas. They all died because of their own diseases, they all died because they were sitting in uncomfortable positions, they didn't drink enough, didn't eat enough, for three days. This, of course, is complete nonsense. Our children were perfectly healthy. Some of the people who died were artists who were active performers. Every day they had workout programs, the dancers, and various sports training plans and rehearsals. And if it a child were sick, they simply wouldn't have been there. So many of the dead were young guys who were real athletes and none of them complained about their health. But in the conclusions of the prosecutor's office it just so happened that these 130 were all so ill, and they decided on the 26th to go to the musical 'Nord-Ost', just to die there altogether, but from what exactly it isn't clear. Moreover, we have received from the prosecution… it is called a forensic examination, an autopsy. I assume all responsibility. I am responsible for every word. Apparently the prosecution had not counted on the fact that we're all together, united by grief. We spend a lot of time in each other's company, and we show each other everything, such as these forensic examinations. It turned out that they were all written from just one copy, cut and paste. So, a 31 year-old young man and a 14 year-old girl who is not fully grown, both of them have kidneys and hearts weighing exactly the same. You know, we now know how much everything weighed. The organs were exactly the same, the descriptions, were absolutely identical. Apparently someone one composed this masterpiece and the other 130 were photocopied and distributed to us: read it, people. It's all nonsense anyway, because everyone died from sitting uncomfortably for three days.

T. DZYADKO: So in the case file there isn't a single word anywhere about the gas, relatively speaking, nor about the actions of the first responders.

T. KARPOVA: No, really. This is a military secret. Moreover, in the past year, 5 years after, the prosecutor's office called us and starting making us sign non-disclosure agreements on what I'm telling you now. So we can assume that we're all enemies of the state, divulging the secrets of our government. But, excuse me, to sit around with this pain and stay with it one on one, for me this is insanely difficult. So we discussed it out in the open, we're totally without limits. Make us sign something or not — we will speak the truth, because if we don't, there will be another Beslan, and, God forbid, even more terrible tragedies. The government is obliged to learn lessons these terrorist attacks. They are obliged to punish the officials who were responsible for rescuing people (and failed). They handed out medals, awarding the title 'Hero of Russia' to General Tikhonov, in particular, causing him to clearly understand that he had climbed the ladder, ascended in his career. And then he was assigned to lead the headquarters in Beslan, and now it was possible to calmly shoot down children, excuse me, in front of their mothers, distraught over three days of captivity, to shoot at them with flame throwers from outside, firing at the school. In my opinion, he feels great about himself, and considers himself a hero in Russia. Ella Kesayeva, who heads the 'Voice of Beslan' organization, she said last year that these are Putin's heroes, not the heroes of Russia, we don't recognize them as heroes, and we never will. We are also ashamed of the members of the Moscow city parliament, who were awarded orders and handed out medals. Apparently they gave them to each other, just for the reason that they lived through the 'Nord-Ost' tragedy. Half of them at the time, during the days of 'Nord-Ost', were on vacation, were abroad, but because of their empathy they received medals and awards. It's shameful that people take these awards. It's shameful that they keep them. It's shameful that someone, maybe on the holidays, proudly sticks them on his lapel.

T. DZYADKO: We put a question to our listeners: in their opinion, will we ever find out the truth about 'Nord-Ost'? Only 21% said yes, someday we'll know. 79% responded to the question with no. Do you think that someday it will happen, and those people of whom you speak, they will be punished?

E. BUNTMAN: Do you have any hope that you, and we, will know the truth?

T. DZYADKO: That there will be an investigation, and the truth will become available?

T. KARPOVA: I'm certainly glad that in our country we still have 21% such optimists. But we can't consider ourselves to fit into this 21%. We don't believe our government. We don't trust our leadership. The truth about 'Nord-Ost' and Beslan will never become known, to anyone. Just as the president of Russia himself is not personally interested in the investigation of these crimes, or the punishment of his own government officials who are obliged to perform the assignments that he gives them. They fill their positions. They are obliged to prevent the infiltration of terrorists into cities such as Moscow, Beslan, and Volgodonsk, and they should be responsible for the lives and rescue of people. If they let it happen, then can you please at least do everything possible to save our children? We can never forget the way they treated us at 'Nord-Ost', not ever. Because in front of still stand those terrible buses, and the bodies of people are loaded up like cordwood, and they are driven God knows where. To wherever the driver thought to take them. They drove through the city without a police escort, no one opened up traffic for them, no one thought about it. Cars and buses, in which there were people in a state of shock, they we stuck for a half hour in traffic jams before they got to the hospitals. When they got there, there were such incidents, the doctors who received these patients, the new arrivals, they didn't even have time to examine the bodies. If someone had already stuck a note on them, that he was dead, then they just put him in the freezer without even looking at the body and seeing if this person could still be saved.

T. DZYADKO: What do you think, why is there such a lack of interest, what you said, on the part of the President?

T. KARPOVA: In our country there will never be any interest in telling people the truth. Look, for 6 years they've hidden from us, from everyone, the gas that was used at Dubrovka. In addition they hide this even from the Strasbourg Court, where people demand it, the international court requires the government to say what was used at Dubrovka. Was this a weapon of mass destruction that, in principle, shouldn't have been used because it violates all international conventions? But it's all swept aside. The question answers itself: there is something to hide. Hence, 'Nord-Ost' and Beslan were political games our government plays. We can't come to any other conclusion, because after 6 years no government official, I mean the federals don't consider it necessary to even meet one time with us, the victims, at least one time to look us in the eye, at least one time explain the situation and say those simple human words: «Excuse us, people, because we're so guilty, because we destroyed your families, because you spend days sitting in cemeteries and cannot live a normal life, because you just can't understand why you were robbed of your loved ones, your children, why you, as mothers, must outlive your children.» It's insanely difficult, and terribly scary. Believe me.

T. DZYADKO: Thank you, Tatyana, that, on what is such a difficult day for you, and will always remain so, you agreed to go on the air with us.

E. BUNTMAN: Thank you very much.

T. KARPOVA: Thank you guys for your support.

T. DZYADKO: And, of course, we wish you good luck.

T. KARPOVA: Thank you. Thanks to everyone who empathized with us today, and shares our grief. Thank you.

T. DZYADKO: Thank you.

E. BUNTMAN: All the best. This must be remembered, and next year, and in two years, and in 10 years, and in 50 years. Of course, it must be remembered.

T. DZYADKO: That was Tatyana Karpova.

http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/oneword/549065-echo/

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