KSENIYA LARINA: Good afternoon. This is Kseniya Larina at the mike and we are starting the program “Culture Shock”. Every year for the last 11 years we here in the studio mark those tragic days, because it was on that day that the awful situation at Dubrovka was tragically resolved, 11 years ago was this operation to liquidate a hotbed of terrorism and in the process killed 130 hostages. One hundred and thirty hostages. Children, actors, and theater workers, all killed at a performance of ‘Nord-Ost’ at Dubrovka, and now a part of history. There was an attempt to resurrect the play, to somehow extend its existence, but this did not work out. Today in our studio we have Dmitry Milovidov, a member of the ‘Nord-Ost’ (organization) coordinating council, and the father of two hostages, one of whom perished. Hello, Dmitry.

DMITRY MILOVIDOV: Good afternoon.

LARINA: Alexandra Rozovskaya is an actress, a leading actress from the Russian Academic Youth Theater. Hi, Sasha.

ROZOVSKAYA: Hello.

LARINA: At that time, 11 years ago, Sasha was part of the cast of ‘Nord-Ost’, part of the children’s troupe, and she spent all those days at Dubrovka. Marina Litvinovich is a social activist, a journalist, and a human rights activist. Welcome and hello, Marina.

LITVINOVICH: Good afternoon.

LARINA: I would like to begin with today’s events, as my guests have just come from the scene. There are ceremonies every year. Tell us a little about what was going on today.

LITVINOVICH: Every year for already 10 years, people — primarily former hostages and their families — gather at Dubrovka where the musical ‘Nord-Ost’ was, on the square itself, somewhere that is difficult to go to without getting goose bumps, since all of us well remember the videos and photographs. We saw the steps, upon which we were standing today, where the living and dead lay. It all happened right at this place 11 years ago. Every year there is a memorial ceremony where a list of the dead is read, they pronounce the name and surname of everyone who died there, as well as their age. There is this tape that has been played for 10 years, and on it a male announcer states: “Forgive us that we could not protect you. Forgive us that the guilty still have not been found.” Every year we listen to this recording and every year these words are still true. Eleven years have passed, but the terrorist attack has not been investigated, and those responsible for the deaths have still not been found.

LARINA: Today some famous figures — I see from the photo reports that Volodya Varfolomeev published on his web log that Josef Kobzon was there. Back then he took an active role in the negotiations and tried to save people. I remember that he was able to get a number of people from the audience out of there. Here I see Irina Prokhorova, and I see Vladimir Zhirinovsky. But did any representatives from the government take part in the ceremonies?

LITVINOVICH: Some non-ranking staff members come, representatives from the local council. There were years when people came from the Moscow city government; Lyudmila Shvetsova came. But more often than not there have been no deputies from the Duma, or the Federation Council. Some politicians came, but without any symbolism, since it is apolitical, and that is well and good. Human memory is a difficult thing. It is very, very hard to keep it going for so long. People here clearly lost someone in this terrorist act. I would like people to remember it. 11 years have passed, but the attitude of the authorities towards this situation is unchanged. The authorities, first of all, still will not investigate, no matter what, so it is very difficult to find justice. Secondly, they lack humanity: when the authorities are confronted with a situation of life or death, for whatever the reason — a terrorist attack, or a submarine, or a prison, or a mental hospital — whenever there is the need to protect human life, they just have no idea how to do this. And ‘Nord-Ost’ is our living reminder that we need to teach the authorities on how to do this.

LARINA: Dmitry, for you these 11 years have all been 11 years of fighting for the right to get answers to questions. Tell us what is happening. I know that you are preparing another complaint that has already reached the level of Strasbourg. In Russia, all possibilities have already been exhausted?

MILOVIDOV: Practically. We have already been at the Strasbourg level before. On June 6th, 2012, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) decision came into effect, and in that decision it was written that yes, Russia had a right to kill its citizens, that is, the use of force, since the circumstances were such. The Court, analyzing case materials provided by Russia and other materials available to it, nevertheless concluded that, apparently (and I emphasize the word apparently), the use of the special chemical substance prevented the theater from being blown up. Understand, it is simply not easy for Europeans to understand our soviet ways — that engineers would be out digging potatoes, or that hostages would be loaded into buses. They cannot fathom this, therefore they believe this, since no explosion happened…

LARINA: So there was no other option.

MILOVIDOV: It means the gas must have helped. The fact that terrorists had at least 28 minutes in order to set off their explosives, even the investigators said that it will never be known why an explosion never occurred. The European Court closed its eyes to this, for obvious reasons. So that, as it wrote, to not put too much blame on the authorities, who had to do something. The European Court’s ruling applies only to the lack of a proper investigation. Back in 2007, the European Court in, its decision on the admissibility of our complaint, wrote that the Moscow Prosecutor's Office had not delved into the rescue operation.

Many have seen pictures from back then, made by TV stations that were shut down afterwards. I mean by this the TVS archive that has gone missing since then. There was a very nice archive by Ren-TV, by war correspondents, and here we should remember Mr. Volonikhin and his group. They were the whole time in a building filming from the window everything that went on, and most importantly, they filmed whatever they could. There was no rescue. All these videos were provided to the ECHR, and it came to that conclusion.

At this point, Russia is not going to carry out the ECHR decision. There have been three hearings in Lefortovo Court. At the first hearing the court recognized that we were right, and ordered the investigator to initiate criminal proceedings and reopen the investigation. This decision was overturned by — excuse my slang — Mosgorsud (Moscow municipal court) for formal reasons and it was sent for a second review in by the same court with another panel of judges. The second decision was again reached – to initiate a criminal case and open an investigation. Once again Mosgorsud overturned the decision, and once again it changed the composition of the panel of judges. The court decided on the third time around that the decision by the European court allegedly makes no direct reference to Russia being obligated to conduct an investigation. Here this is already a question for the Constitutional Court, that is, Russia’s obligation to carry out a decision by the European Court that is not at the Supreme Court level, and so on.

The European Committee of Ministers informed attorney Karinna Moskalenko, and on her birthday she was forced to prepare all the relevant documents for the cabinet of ministers, showing that Russia was not complying with the European Court’s decision and not complying with the Convention and protocols that it signed in 1998. Russia made a formal reply to this memorandum, stating that they had paid out some money, pennies in the great scheme of things, and so they were not obliged to do any of the rest. That there had already been an investigation, something had already been done, and so on. Period.

LARINA: Are there any other relatives of the terror attack victims who have not lost heart, who are continuing this fight together with you? How many are there?

MILOVIDOV: As Winston Churchill once put it: so much has been done by so few. So it is here. People are scattered across several countries: America, Kazakhstan. They were able,

despite the distance and time constraints and so on, write the report, “Nord-Ost — Investigation Incomplete” in a short time.

LARINA: I remember. We introduced it here.

MILOVIDOV: For a while it was on your site, for which many thanks to you, because it had a very small circulation. This book was presented to the public in 2006. Actually, it was a draft reply to Strasbourg, which we later found we very much needed. That is, we laid it all out for people to discuss: “Tell us where we are wrong and we will withdraw all our complaints, and all of our lawsuits.” We had to have some way to communicate with the government through the court in Strasbourg, since we could not get any information from the prosecutor’s office. Until the investigation is complete, until the case is put into the archives, we have no right to acquaint ourselves with they case, according to Russian law. But we got it. Some materials, 17 volumes that were included in our report “Nord-Ost — Investigation Incomplete” that I mentioned. We got copies of all of the criminal case materials from Strasbourg. We, just as Soviet people back in the past, really wanted to discover that it was all an accident, that our children and loved ones died from some set of circumstances, but that everything was done correctly. That everything was ready, and that there was the antidote, and that everything was there and ready to go. No, there are even more striking facts. “In the absence of information about the application of a special substance, no special methods of resuscitation were applied” — a quotation.

ROZOVSKAYA: Dima was talking about those 28 minutes.

MILOVIDOV: At a minimum.

ROZOVSKAYA: It was also explained to us the result, that is, this gas, the composition of which no one has every reported, the idea being that in some miraculous way everyone was supposed to fall asleep. Accordingly, this was kind of like neutralizing the terrorists and in everyone in general. Everyone is asleep, and so later they would come in and save everyone, and happy ending. But what actually happened is quite different. I still remember the smell. I even remember not only the smell, but also the feeling of this smell, like sal ammoniac.

LARINA: Acrid.

ROZOVSKAYA: It seemed to burn a little. At the physical level I remember it; I feel it. I could not only feel it, it could be seen. Maybe I was saved by the very fact that we woke up and noticed it. Everyone knew that it was gas; that has already been discussed. Somehow before we could fall asleep we got water, a couple of bottles, and because all the windows were broken there was a very large draft, and we were in our rehearsal costumes and wearing cardigans and jackets and skirts and so on. And we just tore off pieces of cloth and soaked them with water and handed these out to people who were there, including the suicide bomber. She said: “Give me a rag.” Besides that, of course, all during those three days we prayed for only one thing: that they would not storm the theater. It was stated that if there were any attempt to storm the theater, there would be an immediate explosion, and one explosion would cause a chain reaction.

MILOVIDOV: It was supposed to. A chain detonation.

ROZOVSKAYA: This gas could be felt, it could be seen, and there was time to rip up some rags and make it so that you could breathe. And later there was already machine gunfire and armed intervention.

LARINA: Now we will listen to the news and then go back to the program.

-- NEWSBREAK --

LARINA: We return to the program. Today we are remembering the events of 11 years ago — what happened in Moscow at Dubrovka. Today in our studio is Dmitry Milovidov, Alexandra Rozovskaya, and Marina Litvinovich. I want to speak with Sasha as to how completely different two lives turned out. Back then there was a very little girl, now a grown young woman. How has your view on these events changed over the years, Sasha? I think last year you had an interview in The New Times. I was struck by the story that Sasha told. They took the children to Putin for a reception, gave them tea, and treated them to cakes. And Putin told the young children how they killed the suicide bomber — they shot her in the eye so that half her head was blown off. And the kids were listening to this. He proudly told them this.

ROZOVSKAYA: He proudly told about it, because the emphasis was on the professionalism of security officers, that they had such lightning reactions, that either she would connect contacts and set off the bomb, either that, or shoot her. It was presented to us all like this: imagine how cool it was, how lucky we were. I was 14, already at an age when you notice things, and I was in shock. I cannot remember our president at the time, I was living my life: ‘Nord-Ost’, school, music school, family and friends. And at that time this was the first impetus to cause me to think that something was not right. It was terribly frustrating for me. I was even embarrassed. I did not want to hear it. I did not want those cakes.

I thought about the guys who died, but I was not affected by it at the time. They took photos with all of us and happily handed these out to us. They said that childhood ended for us then. To some extent this is correct — there has been a reevaluation of values. It is such indifference, this citizenship that, as it seems to me now, is beginning to be more important for everyone, thank God. If not this time, maybe I cannot get so deep into some situations that occur around me, not only within my world, my family, and on the outside. Here it is different — the sympathy, empathy, and absolute sincerity that I received in relation to what is happening all around.

LARINA: And are you still are friends with all who survived this hell together?

ROZOVSKAYA: We are friends. We have an invisible, inexplicable bond. When we meet — we have this tradition on the 26th — during the first half of the day there is the (theater) building, the cemetery, and the negative memories. But in the evening, for whoever comes, this is our second birthday. We get together with the actors; we sing songs from 'Nord-Ost', lovely stuff, they are our favorite songs. And I really feel it. We can go a long time not seeing each other, but there is something between us that others do not seem to see or feel — something dear, and very close. Basically almost everyone became actors, kids from my parallel courses, some are a little older and some a little younger, but we are all happy to go see each other's performances, premieres, and movies. So in this sense almost everyone is still with the profession.

MILOVIDOV: They stand alongside us. In the autumn wind we are slightly warmer because of them. They talk to each other, “Happy Birthday” greetings. And they also remember the commandos, to whom many of them owe their lives: make a low bow before these men.

LARINA: They were the first to enter the auditorium.

MILOVIDOV: They obeyed the order. They destroyed the terrorists. And then, disobeying their combat orders that forbad them from approaching the hostages, they returned to the hall, and got poisoned by this gas. After all, there is no antidote. Make a low bow before them. If it had not been for them there would have been many more victims. And now facts from the criminal case:

the special compound that was used had color, smell, and no immediate effect. There was no antidote invented for it. In this situation it could have actually provoked retaliation by the terrorists, which, fortunately, did not happen. The batteries (for the detonators) remained in the suicide bombers’ pockets. There was enough time to insert these and actuate the controls. Even the control switches were not connected.

LARINA: These were the ones that should have been detonated, yes?

MILOVIDOV: Experts from the FSB scientific and technical department did not identify any significant probability of a chain reaction by the explosives. The probability was calculated to be between 3.7 to 14 percent. We understand, of course, that at the time the commandos did not have any such information. So then the question arises: why is this not being investigated? Why did they destroy documents from the operational headquarters? Who benefited from this? Why this whole “dog and pony show”? Sasha mentioned a meeting with the President. At this meeting Putin’s toadies snatched a child actor from the troupe who had not even been a hostage: this pink, healthy, plump child, though slightly thinner now. “Just look at what healthy child actors we have here! Look at them, nation, and be happy. All is well, people, you can go back to sleep.” Then there was the night of Putin’s visit to the opening of the so-called monument to the birds (a generic memorial without specific mention of terrorism or ‘Nord-Ost’ — ed.) At night the same toadies glued up a cardboard list of hostages. Flowers were everywhere, the TV cameras were rolling, “Look at this, all is well. There’s the monument, here’s the president, and here’s the list.” The next morning they shyly removed the list, and there is still no plaque. Our economical former mayor had monuments made for the dead made beforehand, for those who died on “Wings” and for Beslan and for “Riga” and on airliners and so on. And for the recently bereaved in the Volgograd bus explosion. That is the truth.

LITVINOVICH: Dima listed all the major terrorist attacks, especially the last one. Today at our event the question was raised by those giving speeches about why we still have no law on safeguards for victims of terrorist attacks.

LARINA: Especially since they have been talking about this for over 10 years.

LITVINOVICH: A little less, for 7 years there have been talks. The text has been worked out, but there is no one who could lobby for the law and make it to the Duma, other than the hostages, to whom, alas, no one listens. But this law is very important, because government employees such as members of the security services who have something go wrong during counter-terrorism operations, special operations, or hostage-rescue or terrorist liquidation operations, there are a number of safeguards in the law for them and for their families. But innocent people who suffer as a result of terrorist attacks are not guaranteed a thing. Only recently have they started paying money. It happened only after a lot of demands that they need to somehow help people, but as far as long-term social assistance and health care, nothing.

LARINA: And no one is following (the hostages’) health, either?

ROZOVSKAYA: Leonid Mikhailovich Roshal, and a huge thank you to him, he was interested, but we were too many. I this we had a slight advantage, the children from the ‘Nord-Ost’ troupe, there were only 10 of us and we went to the hospital for some health surveys.

LARINA: But as far as the hostages from the audience — nothing.

ROZOVSKAYA: We were not together, so to speak.

LARINA: And did they give any money?

ROZOVSKAYA: They gave 60 thousand rubles. This was the compensation for hostages that survived, sixty thousand rubles.

MILOVIDOV: Leonid Mikhailovich Roshal, to his credit, is keeping track of two children born after the terrorist attack, after the gas attack. The aftereffects are very sad. A girl who is almost already grown up, was playing with a puzzle and asked her mother, “Mom, why can’t I run like the other kids?” Leonid Mikhailovich could not answer this question. This case, unfortunately, is not unique.

LARINA: But Leonid Mikhailovich is also unaware of what substance was used.

MILOVIDOV: When I brought him such a child, he had a moment of truth. I asked him: “Dr. Yevdokimov, the chief anesthetist and emergency medic for the city of Moscow, said that the substance that was used has vanished long ago, that no trace of it remains (in the bodies of the victims). Is this true?” Leonid Mikhailovich said: “No, that’s not true.” But it was only a moment of truth, because there is that statement made by the president that the gas was harmless. So hop to it! No medicine and no rehabilitation is allowed. Period. What has been done in the last year? I do not know whether this is due to the decision by Strasbourg, or not, but carfentanyl, which was allegedly one of the components of this special substance, has been listed as a narcotic. Now they play word games with regard to its harmlessness and harmfulness and leave it at that. Literally two days ago there was a law passed that puts responsibility on the terrorists’ relatives. Now where will this come lead? In the criminal case materials there are calls from the terrorists’ relatives asking permission to collect money found in the dead terrorists’ pockets, since they had not been adjudicated to be criminals. So the Duma got to work. Everything seems to be in order, and that is how our legislators do things.

LITVINOVICH: As far as trying to shift responsibility to terrorists’ relatives, the state, it turns out is separating itself completely from this whole situation, shrugging off questions on how the terrorists managed to drive to the center of Moscow and seize (the theater), and why people died. After all, they died from a lack of medical care. As a matter of fact, even in such matters the state does not want to bear the obvious responsibility for the lives those who suffered and are completely innocent.

MILOVIDOV: I have one more important supplemental law that I forgot to mention: Finally, after 11 years, they have adopted uniform rules to provide emergency care in such situations. In the situation of ‘Nord-Ost’ the doctors, ambulance workers, and medics from the emergencies ministry and other agencies defined for themselves their job description. “Signs of biological death? No need to provide resuscitation.” One medic would do one thing, while another would not do it, and still another would be forbidden from using any drugs. The Moscow rescue service did not exist at all. It was made complicated by the doctors, that is, everyone was deciding things on their own.

LARINA: And what cause of death did the official documents mention for those who died?

MILOVIDOV: (That part was) crossed out.

LARINA: Nothing at all?

MILOVIDOV: Crossed out. Being determined. It is like that even now. Survivors were put down as having received household injuries. The diagnoses that the ambulance doctors wrote were

later edited out, eliminated, in the end they were not in the patients’ discharge summaries. By the way, at that moment instructions for physicians to disregard signs of biological death — darkening of the skin and respiratory arrest for more than a minute that are caused by the secret substance — these instructions were no longer valid. Was there a time to wait for a doctor? A very weak, thready pulse, blood pressure of 20 over zero, and not every doctor found the time and energy to pull these patients back from death. The doctors were by and large set up — dead bodies were tossed into their arms and they were told to perform miracles. And then there is that strange situation where the death toll in the hospitals was recorded as 174 people, but according to official figures only 130 died. How can this be? The prosecutor’s office did not even bother to explain it: the president ordered no investigation, so he is giving us cover.

ROZOVSKAYA: And some more inconsistencies in the figures. I will not give you the numbers, but while we were on the inside we thought the total number of terrorists — men and women — unfortunately or fortunately I cannot give you this exact number now, but I think it was 47. But the dead bodies, or at least the number announced, was several fewer. When we heard some data we were shocked, because after three days we pretty much knew how many of these people were there.

MILOVIDOV: The investigators recorded that there were 40 terrorists. They were all destroyed, and the investigation of them was closed. But when we got the case materials from Strasbourg, we found out that the ringleader, a certain Elmurzaev also known as Aliyev, he was also the chief of security for Prima bank and was also known as Abu Bakar and so on — he had a lot of documents. His body was never properly identified, but the investigators were in such a hurry to send the case to the archives that he too was written off along with everyone else. A half an hour before the bombing at Domodedovo airport, we applied to the Investigative Committee, demanding that they conclude the investigation. To the credit of the new investigator now working on the case, he did his job completely. That is, supplemental witnesses were questioned, and these beasts were finally identified by where they were sitting and what they were doing and so on. The investigator was satisfied with this, but there is that contradiction: 40 terrorists, but at the same time (the terrorist ringleader) Barayev and others said: “Can't you count? There are 52 of us.” This phrase is recorded in case file in the testimony of many hostages. I asked the investigator: “If there turn out to be 52, are you going to close the case?” He said: “If a 54th or 55th falls into my field of vision, he won’t escape responsibility even if the quotas are filled.”

LARINA: Marina, I have a question for you: the most monstrous version of the events yet, because, unfortunately, this is not a single, tragic story. All the same, what are they hiding? What is being covered up? Why not tell the truth? What is stopping them?

LITVINOVICH: The sad truth is that, in the case of Beslan, in the case of ‘Nord-Ost’, people died as a result of actions by the authorities. We are not dealing here with the fact that no terrorists were captured, that is to be understood. But if you determine with legal accuracy the causes of death, the people at ‘Nord-Ost’ died as a result of the use of a special compound and the failure to provide medical assistance — medical assistance that was not organized in any way, or was badly organized. People were killed in Beslan because, after the assault began, they were burned to death or had burning roof beams fall on them. There were almost no gunshot wounds, therefore the cause of death — people were burnt alive in a gym that was under heavy fire from our security forces. To confess that we are the ones killing the hostages is a serious thing. The authorities are pretty cynical, but even this they are afraid to do, despite their cynicism.

ROZOVSKAYA: On the contrary, they hand out medals.

LARINA: The Moscow city council also gave itself medals.

LITVINOVICH: For ‘Nord-Ost’, yes.

MILOVIDOV: This whole time, the only confession ever made was in 2007, by (former FSB chief) Patrushev shortly before his retirement. He admitted that, yes, mistakes were made at ‘Nord-Ost’. I would like to believe that this is a sincere confession, and not because a member of a certain banned political party would not let him watch basketball.

LITVINOVICH: After ‘Nord-Ost’ there was Beslan, and there were still errors. How can there be conscious mistakes in measures that are going to kill some people?

LARINA: I have another question I would like to ask Marina. With regard to public interest, public pressure, why it is so ineffective, if it exists at all, and is it associated with this event and many other events that we are talking about? What is the problem? Is this indifference, unbelief, or some sort of humility? What is it? What is the explanation?

LITVINOVICH: There are several reasons. First of all, our society is sick, unhappy, and divided.

MILOVIDOV: That it is.

LITVINOVICH: It is. But society is just learning to empathize. It is difficult, because the TV set pours streams of hate onto it, and this does not help people at all to be kinder or more responsive. After all, it is very important for a person to think that this could never happen to them, and they begin to struggle, they start to ask the authorities only when it concerns them personally. In recent years, however, we still see that people realize that even if they are not personally touched by something, they still have to demonstrate their position. And this appears on the streets, at marches, and at rallies. We see that people go out into the streets for the sake of others or for the memory of others. That is, it is a problem of our fragmented society, a problem of the authorities that are trying to divide our society even more, and a problem of the political system. Because in normal countries politicians help different groups, including a group of former hostages or people who have suffered from one thing or another. Politicians, of course, try to lobby for some important bills or to amend the laws. Unfortunately, in recent years our independent politics has also been destroyed and assistants who could budge these processes along are now few. Most important, however, is to not grow complacent. No matter how few caring people we have, something can be done, and that is good.

LARINA: The performance of ‘Nord-Ost’ was lovely. I saw it. For me, this story is also personal. I was at this show on October 20th with my family and two small children, that is, three days before the events. I would like to conclude our discussion today with a song from ‘Nord-Ost’. Let us remember those who brought us joy back then, and remember those who no longer will ever do that. Because the worst thing in this whole story is how many never achieved their destinies, the number of broken lives, including those of such very young people who had such lovely talented existences. Thank you.

In ‘Echo of Moscow’

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