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Äåōęč Ėčëûå, õîđîøčå íāøč äåōęč!!! Ōāę īđîņōî íå äîëæíî áûōü, ũōî áîëüíî, ũōî íå÷åņōíî, ũōî ķæāņíî. |
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Īāė˙ōč Āëåęņå˙ Äėčōđčåâč÷ā Ãđčøčíā Ņâåōëā˙ īāė˙ōü īđåęđāņíîėķ ÷åëîâåęķ! Ėû đāáîōāëč â ÃĖĪŅ, ōîãäā îí áûë ėîëîäûė íā÷āëüíčęîė îōäåëā ėåōāëëîâ, īîäāūųčė áîëü... |
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| Written by Íāōåëëā Áîëō˙íņęā˙ | ||||||||
| Ņđåäā, 24 Îęō˙áđü 2007 | ||||||||
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Radio station ‘Echo of Moscow’ Presenter: Natella Boltyanskaya Guests: Gennady Gudkov, Anna Andrianova, and Oksana Barkovskaya N. BOLTYANSKAYA: It's 8:11 pm and are you listening to ‘Echo of Moscow’. A couple times a week, ‘Echo of Moscow’ looks for a way out, but I must say that it’s on Wednesday night that ‘Echo of Moscow’ tells the truth on the air with its program, ‘No Way Out’, and tonight’s broadcast is dedicated to G. GUDKOV: Like a gentleman, I will let the ladies go first. Let them begin. O. BARKOVSKAYA: It depends on what conclusions were reached. Are we less afraid, after N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Anna, your impressions? A. ANDRIANOVA: The questions that, probably, both I and the former hostages have these are issues that we care about, but overall I think that today society has quickly forgotten the tragedy and those issues that, in general, the public is not very concerned about. G. GUDKOV: I have a lot of questions about the tragedy. Sadly, no state is insured against such tragedies, but I spoke a lot about the fact that, unfortunately, such tragedies could happen again, and, alas, I was right, unfortunately. But, on the other hand, to say that no conclusions were drawn and no steps were taken, that would be wrong as well. Yes, after N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Natalya, in the last issue of ‘Government’, General Vasilyev said that many casualties occurred because cars were parked at the entrance to O. BARKOVSKAYA: It’s probably really true, as is the fact that there weren’t enough ambulances, and for a lot of people N. BOLTYANSKAYA: And antidote O. BARKOVSKAYA: And who knows what the gas was, the doctors didn’t know what to do, and 76 hostages, unless I’m mistaken in the figure, they died for this very reason, for being out in the street or underneath other bodies and choking on their vomit. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: I talked to one of the employees from A. ANDRIANOVA: Sure. Unfortunately, that was the feeling from the very first, after we realized the seriousness of the situation and what was going on. It evolved from various experiences, including false information that was being broadcast by the media, information that we got from our families with whom we were speaking (on the cell phones). We heard it, and it was frightening being there. Yes, there was this feeling of abandonment. There was this feeling that we’d already buried before they’d even attempted to save us in any way. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Gennady Vladimirovich (Gudkov) claims that this wasn’t so, since he was on the other side of the hotline. G. GUDKOV: Unfortunately, I wasn’t part of the operational headquarters, though I was one of the first MPs from parliament who came to the scene of the tragedy. It was completely a coincidence, by a difference of 15 minutes, that I wasn’t part of this performance, together with all my relatives. Had it not been for a cashier’s tardiness, I would have been there with Anna in the auditorium, with my whole family, but it turned out that we were just lucky: the clerk brought us tickets to a different theater. When I left the theater, my son called and said: “Can you imagine, if you’d have gone there, you would have been captured.” I could not believe it, so I went there. What can I say? What I saw on the first evening was there was a huge number of emergency vehicles, a huge number of fire engines, ambulances, and a number of government vehicles that had been delegated. On the first night even I got a call from the Moscow regional government, asking who to contact to send two special two buses with special medical equipment to the scene of the tragedy. I explained who to contact and where to take them and where to park them. The street that leads from Great Masons Street was full of ambulances and these buses. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Gennady, another question. O. BARKOVSKAYA: Why, then, did people die? A. ANDRIANOVA: Why didn’t it work? N. BOLTYANSKAYA: A different question abandoned, or not abandoned? G. GUDKOV: No, they weren’t abandoned. I think that, certainly, in the activities of the operational headquarters, perhaps, there were serious mistakes. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: For example? G. GUDKOV: I am absolutely sure, and I am not teasing, all the more so since I’m in the opposition party, clearly I saw with my own eyes that the whole street was full of ambulances. For a long time I couldn’t get to my car. I almost spent the whole first night there. I went home at 4 or 4:30 in the morning. Why was the evacuation N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Perhaps just talks, and not an assault? G. GUDKOV: The talks went on until one in the morning. The headquarters staff was sitting behind closed doors, and we were on the other side of those doors, including my colleague Dmitry Rogozin and a lot of MPs. MP Igor Hankuyev, whose nephew was in the auditorium, he came. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: And what, was he for an assault? G. GUDKOV: He wasn’t for an assault. We simply saw that, at first, there were negotiations going on by mobile phone. According to our feeling, up until one or one thirty in the morning. Then, well, we had a good relationship with Aslakhanov, he came out and said, “listen, they no longer answer our calls, we sort of agreed to send in water and such, we talked about the children, but all communication has been broken off and they’ve stopped communicating.” The next day, as far as I know, and again I could be wrong, communications were restored and the talks went on, they said they would admit a doctor and some of the MPs who were on a specific list. Some of the terrorist demands were voiced, including a parade, well, not a parade, but a rally on Red Square. A. ANDRIANOVA: I’ve been listening to you. I don’t feel comfortable interrupting. G. GUDKOV: I’m telling you what was happening on the outside. A. ANDRIANOVA: You speak so confidently, because the situation on the inside seemed so totally different, and I think that it was different. G. GUDKOV: I’m telling you what I saw in person. A. ANDRIANOVA: If we could return to the theme of abandonment, the false information that I think was given out in the expectation that it would help build relationships with these people. They found it necessary to broadcast it on various media outlets. It was different from what others broadcast, including the journalists who were there, and this attempt to keep up information that didn’t reflect reality went on for a long time. When you talk about how negotiations began right away this is also not quite true, because initially these people weren’t set up to negotiate. G. GUDKOV: But by that night they started. A. ANDRIANOVA: What night are you talking about? G. GUDKOV: The first night, immediately after the capture. A cordon was set up, and in general I A. ANDRIANOVA: Negotiations at that time were in fact authorized, as far as I know, by a call from Kobzon, by the actions of people who were inside the auditorium. We really tried to set them O. BARKOVSKAYA: It all started when Masha Shkolnikova phoned our television station and was in a live broadcast with Anna Fedotova. G. GUDKOV: Not just Masha Shkolnikova. A colleague with whom I once worked in the second service, he was in the auditorium an intelligence officer, we used to work together, I left in 1992, but he N. BOLTYANSKAYA: So, what about your colleague? G. GUDKOV: His boss was at the headquarters, and so here he calls up, and says, “listen.” Initially he discussed the number of hostages, not just the hostages, but also the terrorists and their actions. He told us about how they were operating, and how they were swinging rifle butts around in order to sow terror, and shooting in the air. I don’t know, but this was the information that reached me. Because I got there at 9 o’clock, when they hadn’t yet cordoned off the area, before the troops pulled in, before the Special Forces. I had just arrived, and there was already a group of people formed who were trying to manage the process by taking certain measures, including discussing that information N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Anna, I have a question for you. A. ANDRIANOVA: Wait a second. Again, I say the talks were held in one degree or another, but rather early there was a desire by those people to have talks with an official representative, a competent N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Who would possess such a status? A. ANDRIANOVA: He was supposed to possess such a status and be a person whose opinion carried some authority. O. BARKOVSKAYA: Did they name any such people? A. ANDRIANOVA: Those who were named at various times were Yavlinsky, Nemtsov, Politkovskaya these weren’t names of people with whom they demanded to speak. They said that they could talk with them, but they weren’t those with whom they preferred to have real negotiations. O. BARKOVSKAYA: But with whom did they prefer to negotiate? A. ANDRIANOVA: They wanted to have talks with people appointed by the government. They were waiting for an official statement, a reaction from our government. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Our compatriots probably remember the famous Chernomyrdin negotiations with Basayev, for example. Something at this level, correct? A. ANDRIANOVA: Maybe. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: What kind of demands did you know of, being inside? A. ANDRIANOVA: I knew of the demand to begin negotiations to begin the withdrawal of troops from Chechnya, and the regularization of the conflict by peaceful means. G. GUDKOV: There was still one more demand that was transferred to headquarters that they must immediately hold a rally on Red Square, for all the relatives of those who had been captured to go there. A. ANDRIANOVA: Yes, I remember. G. GUDKOV: I’ll tell you what I know. I’m not making anything up. I’ve no reason to either defend or justify or attack anyone, and there was this demand for the relatives to go out onto Red Square, and for them to go on TV there and ask for the war in Chechnya to be stopped. That was one of the terrorist demands that was sent to the headquarters, and announced, by the way. A. ANDRIANOVA: Maybe those actions were in parallel, but I saw people, it wasn’t my initiative. I saw people who, at some point, realizing that G. GUDKOV: By the way, did you know about the lieutenant colonel who was shot and killed there, that he was sent by the special forces into the auditorium, pretending to be drunk N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Do you mean the man named Vlakh? G. GUDKOV: I don’t remember the name, but it was an officer who had to go in there for reconnaissance, to find out what was going on inside, because there wasn’t much good information, and what information there was, was very different and contradictory. A. ANDRIANOVA: So, this just wasn’t done very competently. G. GUDKOV: Because someone said that there were only 20 terrorists A. ANDRIANOVA: Because the terrorists were the first to say it out loud, “we know that this man was sent.” G. GUDKOV: They expected it. You see, when you are in jail and keeping some sort of a secret, any criminal knows that they can plant someone in there with you. So, the terrorists, having read some literature, could, of course, suspect that it could be a disguised officer, or someone else. But it wasn’t a rough, clumsy job. There just wasn’t any other way, and so the man went in, knowing that he was risking his own life, realizing that he could be shot or tortured or anything they wanted to do to him. Nevertheless, he went in to try to get some information out from the auditorium, information which by that time had ceased coming in because the terrorists took away most of the cell phones, and, in my opinion, they (the people inside) were forbidden under pain of death from using these phones. A. ANDRIANOVA: I used my phone. Moreover, my phone number, I don’t know who did this, it was posted on the Internet and representatives of the Chechen Diaspora called up, the son of Govorukhin, these people offered to negotiate. G. GUDKOV: Well, maybe. I wasn’t online at the time. A. ANDRIANOVA: Some questions have arisen: what did we do there, yes. We were incompetent, why didn’t professional negotiators, the security officers, why didn’t they seize this opportunity? O. BARKOVSKAYA: Why the delay? G. GUDKOV: Why what delay? O. BARKOVSKAYA: In formal negotiations? G. GUDKOV: I don’t understand what you mean by formal negotiations? O. BARKOVSKAYA: On the first evening. G. GUDKOV: Well, I say I find it easier to agree with you now higher ratings, but I want to understand it, like you understand it. MPs with white flags should have met in some neutral zone and sat at some table and exchanged notes, something like that? O. BARKOVSKAYA: Yes, however you like. There it was a matter of thousands of lives. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: MPs don’t give orders to send in troops. G. GUDKOV: The authorities always command, during any N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Gennady, MPs don’t give orders for military actions. G. GUDKOV: What actions? N. BOLTYANSKAYA: We were talking about how they demanded talks with somebody responsible for G. GUDKOV: Let’s do it like this if the terrorists came here to commit this crime, they should at least have acquainted themselves with our basic law, one that was passed long before these events, by the way. O. BARKOVSKAYA: That’s really funny: a terrorist commits a crime, and for this he has to study the Russian Constitution and the Penal Code. G. GUDKOV: Organizers of a terrorist act must understand what they can get out of it. Not in terms of punishment, but from the standpoint of the negotiation process itself. Here the law was written, and is still written, that negotiations are conducted on behalf of the leadership, by the operational headquarters, by specially authorized persons. These individuals were immediately empowered. Pronichev was at that time deputy director of the FSB, and back then he led the headquarters. He and his staff conducted these negotiations. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Let’s take a break for the news. Here in the studio are Gennady Gudkov, reserve colonel in the FSB and a member of the parliament security committee, Anna Andrianova, a former NEWS - N. BOLTYANSKAYA: It’s 8:35 pm and in the studio are Gennady Gudkov, reserve colonel in the FSB and a member of the parliament security committee, Anna Andrianova, a former hostage at O. BARKOVSKAYA: And the laws. G. GUDKOV: Well, you can say whatever you please, and laugh about it, but really, once in Israel, I can’t remember what year, they adopted an amendment to their laws on combating terrorism, and it ruled out possible issues that could be negotiated with terrorists, such as the question of paying ransom and other political demands. Since then they’ve stopped taken Israelis hostage because it’s pointless to negotiate, they just say the same thing, “we have a federal law that forbids us from discussing the topic.” N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Gennady Vladimirovich, the famous story about the 425 Palestinians who were released from prison. G. GUDKOV: This was in what year? N. BOLTYANSKAYA: About two years ago. G. GUDKOV: That was a matter of inter-governmental relations. We’re talking about hostages who were N. BOLTYANSKAYA: But do you know why they were released? In order to get bodies and a live hostage from the other side three dead and one alive. What was this, if not conducting negotiations? G. GUDKOV: That is war. Let’s speak frankly, there is a war going on over there. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: And we don’t have a war? G. GUDKOV: Here in Moscow, at O. BARKOVSKAYA: So do you think that we aren’t living in a state at war? G. GUDKOV: I have said many times that we live in a warring state, but I mean, first of all, the war that is now going on in the North Caucasus, unfortunately. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: You have a very tough question from (radio listener) Alla: “If it had been your child, would you spit on the law?” G. GUDKOV: I might spit on the law, but, unfortunately, my spittle won’t change a thing, because the people who act in accordance with our legislation, they don’t care much about what MP Gudkov thinks, even if he is an MP, and not just a Citizen Gudkov. We’re here on the sidelines, talking about specially designated people, negotiators, and Oksana asked how could we? As a matter of fact, it’s written in blood because these provisions are now in the legislation of every country, they are written in the blood of the victims because when people who have no idea about terrorist psychology, have no combat experience, who don’t understand what happens to people in stressful situations, when these people start to negotiate it leads to very serious A. ANDRIANOVA: So this is why these people didn’t start negotiations? G. GUDKOV: It’s very hard to argue with you, Anya. A. ANDRIANOVA: I’m not arguing. I’m asking. G. GUDKOV: I wasn’t a member of the operational headquarters, even though I came and offered my services, I still consider myself a professional, having some N. BOLTYANSKAYA: From your point of view, why? G. GUDKOV: Here’s what I know: I know that negotiations were conducted with varying intensity by the leadership of the headquarters. They were instructed to conduct these negotiations. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: So, did they announce that this person was authorized? G. GUDKOV: Yes, and as a result of these negotiations there had been, including A. ANDRIANOVA: Excuse me. Who announced? G. GUDKOV: The headquarters. A. ANDRIANOVA: These people (the terrorists) were waiting, and we were waiting for them, again, returning to the theme of abandonment, it was announced by the very same media G. GUDKOV: I understand, Anya. I understand your feelings, but you must understand that when terrorists ask, “who is speaking with us?” And Colonel N. BOLTYANSKAYA: I understand that in this situation they could’ve had the media announce that this was the person who was authorized to negotiate. A. ANDRIANOVA: And that’s what we wanted there, and those people (the terrorists). G. GUDKOV: Well, I think that those people A. ANDRIANOVA: I think that in this situation they should have gone for almost anything. Right in the center of Moscow, thousands of people were sitting under the gun. The authorities in this situation had to go for anything. G. GUDKOV: I went there to try to do something for those thousands of people. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: We aren’t talking about you. G. GUDKOV: No, I’m just here answering for all the authorities, but I just want to answer for myself, for my actions and my point of view. But what I’d like to say is how could you announce this in the media? That Colonel A. ANDRIANOVA: Say that the decision was made. We were waiting for any decision. G. GUDKOV: The decision was made, that’s what I'm telling you. A. ANDRIANOVA: We knew nothing about it. G. GUDKOV: That’s right. You didn’t know, because you were there on the inside. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Anna, did you have an opportunity to receive information? A. ANDRIANOVA: We somehow found out that we were being treated badly, it was said in the media, and it was not true, and because of this we were afraid. Somehow we found out some false information that some mattresses were being sent in, and something else G. GUDKOV: Misinformation is always a trick in any operation. A. ANDRIANOVA: It came from our media. G. GUDKOV: Well, the media will be the media. O. BARKOVSKAYA: This annoyed the terrorists, right? A. ANDRIANOVA: This annoyed the terrorists. G. GUDKOV: Understand that, according to the media, I’m the richest MP. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Gennady Vladimirovich, we aren’t talking about you in this situation. A. ANDRIANOVA: We were waiting for some kind of official information. G. GUDKOV: What’s official? A TASS report? A. ANDRIANOVA: We were waiting for a decision to be made. G. GUDKOV: There was a TASS report that the operational headquarters had been set up and that appointed its chief was General Pronichev, and that the headquarters was composed of this and that, and that Mayor Luzhkov, the prefects and others were part of it. It was all announced officially, and I commented on this, also in the media. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Gennady, this isn’t about you right now. G. GUDKOV: Before the assault, I talked about this. Why do you say that the media didn’t talk about it? Maybe you were lucky enough to listen to or watch those channels that talked about something else, but it was so. There were negotiations. I saw them and heard them myself. Explain to me, Anya. If there weren’t any negotiations, then how could Dr. Roshal have gotten to you? How could Kobzon have come, how could they have brought in at least a little food and water and some kinds of drinks, or at least something? It was also a result of the negotiations, but after that, I definitely, or at least we got the information, members of the headquarters came out and said, “guys, all negotiations have ceased, we have exhausted all the limits,” that it to say, all means of resuming the talks. I’ll tell you more. I think that I’m not revealing some military secret on the air A. ANDRIANOVA: All the same, I must interrupt you. Once again I say, being on the inside, and, unfortunately, being in close contact with these people, what you are calling negotiations were not perceived by them (the terrorists) to be negotiations. These were steps taken so that we could get medicine and water. These were some small steps that seemed to us to be designed to make these people seem more human, but the waiting did not go away. We actually were waiting for some kind of spokesman, and when negotiations would get under way, for a representative who would have suited both sides. G. GUDKOV: So, was the president supposed to go into the auditorium? N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Because of thousands of his citizens? Why not? Not inside, but at least he could have made some sort of contact. G. GUDKOV: To where? The President? N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Yes, for thousands of citizens. G. GUDKOV: Excuse me, please, I, of course, sound a little cynical on your broadcast, but what’s the difference if it’s 30 people, or a thousand? The death of one man is a tragedy. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: That’s understandable. It’s an open place. G. GUDKOV: Then it would have soon become commonplace to put pressure on the entire state. A. ANDRIANOVA: While a thousand is just a statistic. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: How many would it take? G. GUDKOV: It’s not a matter of how many. It’s just not possible to even try to do it I say again, that I’m from the opposition party, I’m not from ‘United Russia’, but even I now think that it would be wrong to say that if something happens the president himself must come and conduct negotiations. A. ANDRIANOVA: Not personally. G. GUDKOV: But they demanded it. A. ANDRIANOVA: They did not demand it. G. GUDKOV: They demanded a parade on Red Square. A. ANDRIANOVA: They demanded G. GUDKOV: Well, what are you telling me? There was the deputy security minister at the headquarters, and the deputy interior minister, and Mayor Luzhkov, and all these people on that level weren’t enough. Forgive me, please, but what did they need? Kofi Annan to bring in the milk? A. ANDRIANOVA: I’ll repeat it again, they wanted G. GUDKOV: Forgive me, Anya. I understand your feelings, and when you all were there, you all perceived everything around you to be hostile, even though there were people who were ready to go and storm (the building). A. ANDRIANOVA: No, we perceived, and expected assistance. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: I will now continue electronic voting from our dear listeners. First some advertising, and then get ready to vote. ADVERTISEMENT - N. BOLTYANSKAYA: The question we’re asking you, it sounds like this: was there any way out, other than an assault? If you say yes there was, dial O. BARKOVSKAYA: I think that we received 20 percent of the information. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: So, was there a way out, other than by an assault? If you say, yes there was, dial G. GUDKOV: Yes, I talked about this many times, and, by the way, in the media I said that it was a very serious failure of the government and the intelligence services and the law enforcement system. It allowed the legitimatization of a whole gang of terrorists right here in Moscow, and then with impunity, well, maybe not with impunity, to carry out a very massive, serious action. So what’s new here? N. BOLTYANSKAYA: But one of our listeners is calling for the punishment of the television stations that were real accomplices of the terrorists. O. BARKOVSKAYA: Television, it depends on which one. We have many different TV channels in the country. I’m working on the channel that wasn’t an accomplice of the terrorists, it was our channel that was the main source of information for everyone, including for the operational headquarters, because it was with the leadership of N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Since Gudkov now answers for all the MPs, you are now responsible for all the television stations, agreed? O. BARKOVSKAYA: Agreed. Yes, indeed, in the news, the first news that went out, really, there was information there, and probably there was news that they should have hidden. Because Sasha Tsekalo talked about where some of the entrances and exits were, it was during a live broadcast and that shouldn’t have been done, of course. G. GUDKOV: Yes, someone climbed onto the roof. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: And I repeat the question for voting. Was there a way out, other than an assault? If you say there was: A. ANDRIANOVA: Absolutely. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Anna, a question for you. I see today, even right now, that you are at odds with G. Gudkov, who was at that time in the headquarters, as far as demands. G. GUDKOV: Next to the headquarters. By a closed door, but we still talked. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: What do you think, which of you has more of an aberration of consciousness, excuse such a question. O. BARKOVSKAYA: The whole country. A. ANDRIANOVA: Probably, yes. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: So once again the question: was there a way out, other than an assault? If you say there was: A. ANDRIANOVA: We must understand that on October 24th, 5 years ago, we woke up in another country entirely. We went to bed on the 23rd in one country and we woke up on the 24th in another country. G. GUDKOV: Well, there’s no point to that. You just don’t know of other cases. O. BARKOVSKAYA: One would like to say, “Thank God for that.” G. GUDKOV: It just turned out to be bigger and became well known to the public, and in publicity. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Why, how about the apartment bombings in Moscow? G. GUDKOV: The apartment bombings, yes, they were also N. BOLTYANSKAYA: How’s that again? There’s one principal difference. When the apartment houses were blown up, 5 minutes before the death of the hostages and all the inhabitants of these apartment houses were hostages no one discussed any demands G. GUDKOV: I mean in the cruelty of the terror act. A. ANDRIANOVA: The difference here is that something could have been done. G. GUDKOV: What? A. ANDRIANOVA: To try to use the opportunities G. GUDKOV: Which? A. ANDRIANOVA: There were opportunities G. GUDKOV: Which? A. ANDRIANOVA: To minimize the number of people G. GUDKOV: Tell me, which? A. ANDRIANOVA: who were at risk during the assault. G. GUDKOV: Tell me, which? A. ANDRIANOVA: To set a harsh condition G. GUDKOV: For whom? A. ANDRIANOVA: For the terrorists. G. GUDKOV: To you, Anya, I’ll say more here, I A. ANDRIANOVA: To free the children. We were with you on different sides of the walls. G. GUDKOV: I’ve talked a lot on the air in terms of the election campaign, but I’ll tell you one thing. I, for one, personally I won’t impose my point of view that there have been two terrorist attacks, well, perhaps three, that in general stand out from all other acts of terrorism in the world, in that they had no inner logic. I’m not talking about the apartment house bombings, okay? But with N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Who staged the firing of rocket-propelled grenades at the school? A. ANDRIANOVA: Or the use of gas at G. GUDKOV: There were recorded certain unsuccessful attempts by the terrorists at N. BOLTYANSKAYA: So, this means that there were no negotiations? G. GUDKOV: I understand, that when they demand, for instance, “release these 5 people here, or release these, and we’ll let the hostages go.” That is bargaining, but it isn’t bargaining to say, “bring the troops home from Chechnya and have the relatives hold a parade on Red Square,” and some other third demand. I don’t remember what it was. In other words, there were no specific demands. A. ANDRIANOVA: They could have, and should have, responded in stages. The demand to appoint an official to negotiate this was a small step. Appoint him and then put forward the demand to release the remaining children. We waited for an official announcement about this. There was none. G. GUDKOV: By 11 o’clock at night the chief of the headquarters staff was appointed. A. ANDRIANOVA: Can you give me a link? I’ll look it up on the Internet, in the media. Maybe I can find somewhere to read about this? G. GUDKOV: I don’t know where you can. O. BARKOVSKAYA: What does the chief of the headquarters have to do with it? A. ANDRIANOVA: We waited for reports that a negotiator had been officially appointed. G. GUDKOV: I don’t quite understand you. I’m telling you that there was an order by the FSB director appointing the chief of the headquarters. O. BARKOVSKAYA: But the chief of the headquarters staff is not a negotiator. G. GUDKOV: Well, did we have to fax a copy of the order to the terrorists? N. BOLTYANSKAYA: The chief of the headquarters is not a negotiator. This is exactly true. G. GUDKOV: This is the formal part of the question. There were no real demands. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Our voting is done. Over the course of a few minutes we received 2893 calls. Gennady Vladimirovich, was there a way out, other than through an assault? G. GUDKOV: There wasn’t. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Anna? A. ANDRIANOVA: There wasn’t, but they needed to reduce the number of people who were in danger, and there were chances, possibilities of doing this. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Oksana was there a way out, other than by an assault? O. BARKOVSKAYA: Negotiations. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: There was a way out, besides an assault, so said 75% of the callers. 25% said there was no way out. G. GUDKOV: Well, judging from the interaction, this was more than half of your usual audience. A. ANDRIANOVA: Tell me, Gennady Vladimirovich, were you there when the assault began? When at 5:30 am they started to send in the gas and started carrying out people’s bodies? G. GUDKOV: No, I was there until that night, the last night. I knew that there’d be an assault, so I asked for a driver to standby there, if suddenly something started, so that he could come get me. He came and the assault had already taken place. I was there at about 6 or so, or about 7. I can tell you A. ANDRIANOVA: Answer like one of the authorities G. GUDKOV: I'm not one of the authorities. A. ANDRIANOVA: Why did so many die? G. GUDKOV: I am in approximately the same category you. Just as I have no effect on things, so too do you. Just via the microphone. O. BARKOVSKAYA: Anna and I are not MPs, so we’re in completely different weight classes. You’re a person from the government and should be able to answer some questions. G. GUDKOV: Well, an MP I’m not going to argue with you. Can I tell you as a professional? Here’s what I can tell you as a professional in state security: the military part of the operation, the combat, the commando part, was performed very well. As far as the rescue part of the operation A counter-terrorist operation consists of several parts, and as far as the rescue part it was disgusting. There were people, there were medical people who knew the time the assault was to begin, and everything was prepared, and, incidentally, the time was moved back by two days. I know why the evacuation turned out like this, and it wasn’t that cars were parked in the way. There was information that the basement was A. ANDRIANOVA: Then why are they silent about it, why don’t they just say, that G. GUDKOV: Well, I’m saying it. A. ANDRIANOVA: But officially G. GUDKOV: I’m asking the authorities, and my colleagues, why weren’t any of the terrorists there taken alive? N. BOLTYANSKAYA: What do you think? G. GUDKOV: For me this question has no answer. O. BARKOVSKAYA: Almost every death certificate states: “ate too little, drank too little.” G. GUDKOV: There are a lot more idiots in this country than clever people. O. BARKOVSKAYA: But many just have a dash. G. GUDKOV: Let’s talk about serious things. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: And this isn’t serious? G. GUDKOV: How should they write it? Of course, it’s Well, what can you do? N. BOLTYANSKAYA: The relatives of the victims received the same data. O BARKOVSKAYA: Some have a dash through the line for ‘cause of death’. G. GUDKOV: I’m telling you, in essence, that the rescue part of the operation was prepared three days before the assault. I personally saw lot of these ambulances that stood close by. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: You and Oksana are talking about absolutely different things. And why was this perfectly planned operation G. GUDKOV: I don’t know. A. ANDRIANOVA: Why did it start at a time when there was no real threat to the lives of the hostages? G. GUDKOV: As we were told at the operational headquarters, and we were there with my colleagues until the last moment, we were told, “that's it, no negotiations, the terrorists won’t enter into any more negotiations, they make no demands and they won’t let us do anything for the relief of the hostages.” N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Why didn’t the terrorists blow anything up, Anna? G. GUDKOV: They didn’t have the guts. A. ANDRIANOVA: I think that they really wanted to negotiate and didn’t have such intentions in the near future. G. GUDKOV: I think they didn’t have the guts. O. BARKOVSKAYA: Under the camouflage clothes they were wearing good suits. A. ANDRIANOVA: They definitely weren’t planning on drying. G. GUDKOV: No, not the guys, they weren’t planning on going to the second floor. They were going to change clothes and get away. I guessed that if there had been an explosion there’d be a panic and the cordon wouldn’t have been able to filter out the survivors from the terrorists. A. ANDRIANOVA: I don’t think they were ready to blow themselves up at that moment. I don’t think they thought that we’d so casually carry out an assault and expose so many people (to the risk). I think that they were hoping to negotiate. O. BARKOVSKAYA: There is information that the explosives were fakes. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: The principle question, about which G Gudkov and O. Barkovskaya were arguing when you mentioned the death certificates that were all the same, we were talking about what happened after the assault took place. A. ANDRIANOVA: We all have become hostages of information, that’s what happened. O. BARKOVSKAYA: It’s absence, to be more precise. A. ANDRIANOVA: Yes. G. GUDKOV: I don’t remember what question you asked me. I missed it. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Everyone today is talking about how we haven’t heard the truth. Why is that? G. GUDKOV: It’s because during any event there is always a lot of truth. We may never know the truth. Everyone has his or her own truth. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Well, I think that on this optimistic statement by Federal Parliament Member G. Gudkov we will end out current program, which, recall, is called ‘No way out’. So that our listeners are not without an answer, I will read a text message that was sent to us: “You kitchen boors, if you were in charge of the country God forbid doesn’t it seem that this situation, as you guests look at it, we wouldn’t have rescued any hostages." I will dot this ‘i’ several times. G. GUDKOV: I’ll bet that what was sent to me can’t even be read on the air. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Why not? It’s okay. O. BARKOVSKAYA: You know, in this situation, that was almost a compliment. N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Thank you. Gennady Gudkov, FSB reserve colonel and member of the parliament security committee, Anna Andrianova, former Views: 6169 |
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