I want to start today's broadcast expressing gratitude to everyone who came today to our studio. I will introduce the participants of today's conversation. Dmitry Milovidov is a member of the coordinating council for the Nord-Ost organization and the father of two hostages, one of whom never returned, yes, Dmitry? Hello. Marat Abdrakhimov is a wonderful actor who was performing at Nord-Ost, good day, Marat, hello.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — Good day.

K. LARINA — Mark Podlesny, also an actor. Good day, Mark.

M. PODLESNY — Hello.

K. LARINA — Oksana Barkovskaya, journalist, author of at least two films that focus on Nord-Ost — «Diary from the other side» and «Christina plus Arseny». Good day, Oksana, hello.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Good day.

K. LARINA — Why do I say thank you? Because when I got the idea to put together this program, we called a lot of people and got a lot of refusals. Refusals, because people who have experienced it after 8 years still cannot find the strength to start the subject again, to simply come in and talk.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — I really understand them.

K. LARINA — Yes, I understand this perfectly, and realize what a wound it left in people's hearts, and, especially for those who lost loved ones, so once again I say thank you for finding the strength and coming to our studio today. The subject of this broadcast I have named «Nord-Ost: life before and after» because, of course, given the incredibly cynical government silence on this episode in our nation's history, I think it would be important for us to take time to remember those who are no longer in this world, who left us while quite young, these young boys, children, actors and audience members, and talk a little about those who go on with their lives, and if you know someone, I think you do know, certainly you talk with colleagues, and Dmitry, of course, knows them, and so does Oksana, they know of those who have passed over this Rubicon and found the strength to live. Well, let me ask them to maybe talk a little about what happened, and have Marat and Mark talk about their lives before and after Dubrovka, and in general, does time heal?

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — In different ways. I think in my case, after what happened, naturally, just as perhaps for anyone else, we weren’t prepared for such a thing, and my mind immediately filled with so many questions, questions that I tried frantically to answer: why us? What is death? Why did this happen us? Where do we go after death? Is it worth living after this? And so on. There were many questions. For 8 years I searched for answers. I found many of them, but what I find acceptable may not necessarily be acceptable to someone else. Well, in general, life does not just develop. I made my life into what it is. I mean that I take responsibility for my life, let's put it that way. I woke up and forced myself at every moment accept responsibility for myself, to live this life to get pleasure from it and appreciate every moment of life, because we’re all under God and each of us can at any particular moment can go somewhere from where we’ll never return, right? So there. And so for every moment, for every breath, I'm grateful and I, well, I can say that I savor this life, that's because most of us, so to speak, go through life, one must confess, like some sort of a bio-robot: we wake up, go and wash up, have breakfast, go to work, come back at night and watch TV, lie down again, and every day it's the same thing. Now, if everyone perhaps was to ask themselves: when was the last time we looked into the eyes of our loved ones, yes, the favorite person in our family, when did we last play with the baby, I don't know, when did we watch a beautiful sunset, there's always something there in our lives that’s beautiful. This is what I learned, probably, from Nord-Ost — to appreciate every moment of life.

K. LARINA — There was no desire to change jobs and get out of there?

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — You know, no, because at that time I was, how to say this, this is my passion, this is my love, I gave 12 years to the musical genre and it's like a drug, one that's very difficult to quit. For 12 years… at the time I wasn't ready, though it was very scary, scary, it was hard to get back on stage, to get to that point in the musical when the hostage taking began.

K. LARINA — You were on stage when the seizure took place, yes?

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — And it’s not just me, I asked the guys, everyone's heart would freeze and they'd get nervous tics, and it went on practically to the end of the project, in my opinion, it was really scary.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Excuse me, but when Nord-Ost was resumed, did you participate in the play?

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — Of course, of course, I have a family and I had to feed it. And it wasn't our fault that we're back in that same auditorium, and not the fault of our producers that we weren't in a different one, unfortunately, in Moscow there's not enough room to perform every play and what is now… that is, for all 8 years there still were plays being performed and now there's a performance of «An Ordinary Miracle» and one would probably have liked the producers to pick another site, but there just isn't any other one in Moscow, no.

M. PODLESNY — Yes, it's tough with space, and most importantly, the question of what it's like to perform there. Here, I, for one, yes, I had a feeling that that they came here, came because, for me it’s a great pleasure, and an honor, to perform in this musical. It was a wonderful project. I have not seen its equal on any Moscow stage these last 8 years. And I had a feeling that something very dear to me was taken away and ruined. And I wanted to clean it up and cuddle it, that's what I put into it, Marat and I.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — The entire team.

M. PODLESNY — The creators invested a huge amount of energy, their soul, their talents, and so on. And I'd like to revive all of this, renew it, I wanted to make it live again, you know? Water it so that would come back to life, because I had the feeling that every member of the troupe related to this project as if a loved one.

K. LARINA — By the way, I'd like to say that I watched this show; I watched it on October 20th.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — Wow. That is, you're lucky.

K. LARINA — 3 days before the horror.

D. MILOVIDOV — The terrorists had already been in the theater?

K. LARINA — Yes, I saw them. And then, of course, when you start to think, I saw these women around the ladies room while everyone was smoking. There were a few women, similar to those…

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — To those who were there.

K. LARINA — And why do I remember them? Not because they had some special look, but because they didn't smoke, everyone there was smoking, and, lo, they huddled strangely in the corners there, mumbling something to each other, but, of course… but I just thought about it not because I was lucky but I think I’m lucky because I saw this show. We also went with our children and had so much fun, so I can say that I am very lucky in the sense that I've seen this work. Mark, back then you didn't interrupt your acting life after everything? Didn't you? Here, I'll ask the same question. Didn't you?

M. PODLESNY — No. There was no desire.

K. LARINA — Yes, to change life.

M. PODLESNY — Change life.

K. LARINA — Yes.

M. PODLESNY — Honestly, you're not the first person to ask me about it.

K. LARINA — Of course.

M. PODLESNY — Well, for now somehow I just can’t imagine myself doing anything else. I still can’t even imagine that I could do something else, that is, I love my profession.

K. LARINA — Somehow over time were the emotions associated with this episode of your life blunted?

M. PODLESNY — You know what I'll tell you? It isn't that the emotions are blunted directly, but there’s such a thing as memory being very helpful, you know? My memory is very kind to me. Certain things it lets go of, not forgotten, that is you immerse yourself in it you start to remember some things, certain parts and so on, but if you simply talk and say, look, it was over there back then… it was the day after you were taken and what you were doing at the time, for example. I can say this because my memory is very helpful, it kind of saves me, but there are many feelings, various ones, fear, of course, and surprise and confusion, and fear for your loved ones who didn't know anything about you and sat at home without any news and you realize that they probably had it even worse, even harder than you who could see everything around you, while they sat there and their imagination builds something absolutely horrible…

K. LARINA — By the way, we must remember that this was a pivotal moment in the history of our country, not only because of the incredible scale of the tragedy, but it was right in the city center, near the center of the capital that all this happened, and we could still receive information and live broadcasts and we were live on the air, by the way, when there were talks with the terrorists, we were there, too…

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Dima Lisnevsky, I remember back then that Dima Lisnevsky called up, he was one of the managers of the station.

K. LARINA — Yes. So we were still able to directly follow what was happening. It seems to me that this also played a role. Well, Dmitry, you have the floor, please.

D. MILOVIDOV — All these years after the tragedy, the support of the people has been very precious to us. And the support of the media. Your radio station was of our first hope and support. I’d like to specifically thank Mr. Venediktov for his civic responsibility, and all the employees of this radio station. I'll tell our listeners that the station management had the courage to place on its website our report, called: «Nord-Ost. The Unfinished Investigation.» This is a strong civic position. We have the support of former hostages, and the actors. Their presence is very precious to us. Their presence on October 26th near the Dubrovka Theater. They stand beside us. We are a little warmer when they are with us.

K. LARINA — Do a lot of people come?

D. MILOVIDOV — Yes…

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — Each year fewer and fewer.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Each year fewer and fewer.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — This is unfortunately true.

D. MILOVIDOV — People have the usual everyday problems. It falls on a weekday. Many (hostages) following the events had to change jobs because a wise employer understands that after a gas attack a person is a potential disability claim, and this would cause long and dreary mess with the pension, so people were forced to cover their tracks. This is a big problem.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Well, many, in fact, never got recovered. In any case, if the group knows, let's say a person lost a child; in any case there are memories…

D. MILOVIDOV — I'm still more concerned about the disintegration of the Nord-Ost organization, because so much has been said about the friendship among the actors, that they are unified. Well, why does the Memorial Book, which we are now writing and hope to finish, why are there so few recollections from my colleagues? Why do orchestra members complain here, close friends say to each other: no need to call her, don't bother her, she’s in mourning. Don’t they realize that if her instrument is silent that her three children might go hungry and she’ll have to go wash floors and the children won't get an education or be properly dressed? Maybe they don't understand. After all, everyone needs to work. We aren't wealthy. People in Russia have the same main problem and leaves its mark. First and foremost, the most vulnerable people here are those who are underage. 70 children were orphaned after Nord-Ost. Many of them have already gone on to independent lives, but they never got the same education that they could’ve had with the help of their parents.

K. LARINA — Did they get any money or a lump sum payment?

D. MILOVIDOV — This is a separate issue.

K. LARINA — No, no, tell me.

D. MILOVIDOV — I have many victims, they say why not write a letter to Medvedev? Such trust in the kind tsar. We wrote. This letter’s in our folder, and there’s the answer. Of course Medvedev didn't read it. It was flushed off to the relevant authorities. One drain goes to the prosecutor's office, and another to the Ministry of Health and Social Development. The general meaning of the letter is: you have all been paid. In this case the government didn’t hesitate and in one line writes about its charity care, which we certainly appreciate, and the support of private charities, from Mosehnergo, and then after a comma it indicates the Volskiy Foundation of Industrialists and Entrepreneurs, as if you can thank the government that it hasn't killed off the charities. That's the situation now.

K. LARINA — What about some sort of medical care?

D. MILOVIDOV — There was an office organized… well, my neighbors are already giggling. The 13th Municipal Hospital is a trauma hospital. It was set up to help with injuries at a large factory. Naturally there is no toxicology department, nothing. But the office was opened there. The reception there was as follows, please forgive me for the details, analysis of feces and urine: free of charge. Oh, you need biochemistry? No, that's on you, please go to a health clinic at your own expense. You need imaging? Sorry, that has to be paid for by you. Oh, you're dizzy? Well, go home quickly, God forbid that you fall down on the steps. As far as I know, people just stopped going to this office. But put a check mark there: a medical office did exist. After the publication of our report, «Nord-Ost. The Unfinished Investigation», there was a meeting at City Hall and Dr. Roshal was invited to discuss the creation of a separate medical consultation office for children who went through the gas attack, it was to be at the Filatov hospital. As far as I know nothing was ever done. At the same time the authorities were very concerned about television programs on problems of former hostages, and movies that were filmed. I've read documents from competent bodies that report all the way to the top, and with particular concern.

K. LARINA – We’ll now listen to news and then back to the studio to continue our discussion. Already Oksana Barkovskaya is given the floor.

NEWS

K. LARINA — Continuing our program, I'll remind you that today we are remembering the events that occurred on Melnikov Street 8 years ago, yes, at Dubrovka, and today in our studio we have Dmitry Milovidov, member of the coordinating council of the Nord-Ost organization, and actors from the musical Nord-Ost who went through this hell. They are Marat Abdrakhimov, Mark Podlesny and journalist Oksana Barkovskaya. Here I have discovered something on Wikipedia, and I just wanted to read it since we started talking about health effects, so I’ll quote the then Russian president, Vladimir Putin, who on September 20th, 2003, said at a briefing: «These people did not die as a result of the gas, which was harmless, but were victims of circumstances — dehydration, chronic diseases, and the very fact that they had to stay inside that building.» I understand perfectly, that he himself didn't come up with this, but he helpfully offered it up, but, of course… even I forgot about it, we all forget if no one reminds you, you quickly forget what was happening, what they told us. Here’s the president's speech…

D. MILOVIDOV — Gennady Gudkov, a member of the Security Council, had to lubricate his chief's words by saying that, understand that the president isn't a chemist, but a spy. I understand that he swore to himself that his speechwriters prepared such nonsense.

K. LARINA — But was spoken and it will remain history.

D. MILOVIDOV — The words have been said. This seemingly was to serve as a statement about the crime, after all was said back then about the doctors not knowing how to treat it. The idea is that if you pursue it like they did during the old Soviet days, it had to be prosecuted. As in the words of the president, an investigation, but this was not done. The gas was harmless, if you please, but what do we tell a girl born after the Nord-Ost whose mother came under the gas attack in her fifth month and doctors haven’t told her about possible effects. The girl was born and diagnosed with cerebral palsy. Then tests revealed that it was actually toxic encephalopathy. It’s a dilemma for her mother: you can change the diagnosis, but then she loses her welfare because with toxic encephalopathy, which we have previously never seen, there’s no pension. But the mother has also two parents who are Chernobyl invalids, what she to do? So she said no. But the little girl has grown up since then and asks: Mommy why can't I? I'm like other kids.

K. LARINA — Oksana.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — You know, I'm looking now at Marat, Mark, at people who were in the auditorium and I realize that I can see what Mark is going through, I understand that 8 years can’t completely heal someone. In any case, the people who on the 23rd entered the building on Dubrovka became different, and they don't change back, and in their lives nothing will change back. I've talked a lot with former hostages. They can't be like they were before because, no matter what, they are still hostages, isn't that so, Marat? Because there's no such thing as a former hostage.

K. LARINA — You're following the destinies of the heroes that you've run into, yes?

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Of course, I'm very friendly with them. For me a very close friend is Irina Fadeyeva, heroine of the first film: Nord-Ost — 11th row, and naturally Irina communicates with the other hostages, I know practically everything that happens to many of them. I want to say that it was very difficult… of course, it was difficult the first year, the shock… and the second year, the third year… and then somehow, well, enough… even then, as far as I know, Dmitry, you have ceased to meet as you used to during the first 2–3 years.

D. MILOVIDOV — Why? When there is a need, we meet.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Well, not as initially. And here the 7-8-th years for some reason, by the way, psychologists… Psychologists said when all this happened, they said that the most difficult would be the 7th and 8th years after it happened. Almost everyone has something happen in his or her life that, in general, is not a good thing in any event. I wanted to make a movie now, just in time for the eighth anniversary of it all, about how these people now live, and I realized that I couldn't do it. I can't because I didn’t have the moral strength. Neither I nor my, shall we say, potential heroes, they won't be able to talk about what happened because for very few of them was it something good. Nord-Ost does not let go.

K. LARINA — And no one left the country?

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Sveta Gubareva, who lost a daughter, left. That's everyone I think, I don't know of anyone else. She went to America and is, I think, now engaged in Memorial Book.

D. MILOVIDOV — The sister of the deceased Christina Kurbatova left.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Yes, Christina's sister left and had a baby boy, named Christian, yes, but there also was a tragedy, her husband…

D. MILOVIDOV — Died.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Her husband died.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — We lost Boris Lapin, our actor who was also with us. He was a fellow countryman and a fellow student at the Ufa College of the Arts. For a year he had a headache like all hell, then it turned out that there was a tumor and he was gone, unfortunately we lost him.

K. LARINA — That is, everything that had happened to him happened after Nord-Ost.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — Yes, of course, because the gas is not excreted from the body. Back there Mark was complaining, I know he's got this hellish headache all the time. Same problem for me, but I've been trying to fight it somehow. We’re all for healthy diets, no alcohol or smoking, to support our liver, but understand that the toxin is not excreted from the body. One has to live with it and somehow delay…

K. LARINA — Where did you find that? Did you somehow check…?

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — I read, I asked many experts and looked on the Internet, and Dmitry has made many inquiries and pretty much knows a lot about the components of this gas. No, there wasn't, I think, an antidote to the gas and, you know, like… even the fact that there is no description of how it acts on a person, because many countries are fighting terrorism, and I know that it's a big problem in the state of Israel with this as well, but when they had a hostage situation and there were not many — one or two I think were held hostage. One, two or three, but no more. And they, the secret services of Israel, rejected this gas, it was rejected because they didn't know the effects, it could have been life or death but still they refused.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Well, I can say that one of the hostages underwent tests in the American Hospital in Paris. It's a hospital operating there. So, only the best European doctors work there, and they just couldn't come up with a diagnosis, that is, they didn't understand what happened to him.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — The same thing with Konstantin Sirotkin, who was here 2 years ago in this very same studio, with Eugenia Albats. He was in the hospital for six months, he had a temperature, which wouldn't go down and it damaged his liver. He had problems with his head and the doctors didn't know what was going on with him, couldn't make a diagnosis. Same story.

K. LARINA — I remember when all this happened we all watched the events on television and, of course, we saw the panic among those who came to rescue you … I mean the guys who the commandos sent in, and they carried unconscious people outside and stacked them near the entrance.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — We shot that film. We had the only camera there. We put a reporter there and he saw it all.

K. LARINA — Did you see how they loaded these unfortunate people onto the buses, how their heads were lolling around because they were all obviously out of it, but most important, remember, back then one could say this, but now no one says it, the doctors in the hospitals were supposedly prepared to receive the hostages, but they couldn't imagine with what was going on. They expected gunshot wounds, but here were choking victims and no one knew anything. What kind of antidotes fort it was not even mentioned. I don't know. I'd like some clarification from Dmitry. Was there some sort of official medical report associated with this story? Or was there nothing at all?

D. MILOVIDOV — There were autopsies carried out.

K. LARINA — So.

D. MILOVIDOV — All 125 autopsies repeated the same diagnosis: people had been sitting awkwardly for a few days, didn't drink enough water, and got little food and sleep.

K. LARINA — Well, that's what Putin said, as a matter of fact.

D. MILOVIDOV — They all breathed the same stale air, but suddenly, in a day, they all forgot how to breathe.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Well, Yaroslav Fadeyev's death certificate is just blank.

K. LARINA — A lot of them, I know about this, are blank.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — I was told that the children that were there couldn’t cope, but next to me was a former officer, Lena Baranovskaya's husband. This was a healthy man who made it through Afghanistan, and when the seizure of the theater occurred he said: well, look, I got away from them during the whole war and now they got caught me here. And sitting next him was his son, also a big guy and a student at Moscow University, very tall.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — 'Little Andrei'.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — Andrei, yes. And he stayed there too, you know? I can't say that they were, well, in bad health. And they're not the kids, they're grown men.

K. LARINA — No, well, if this were so, if we assume for a moment, that it really is so, it means that each individual by this time had been under these conditions for 3 days, let us believe that, alright, but then could they really say that the gas was what it was, or not?

D. MILOVIDOV — And how was it with the Special Forces? Nine commandos were hospitalized. It is known that the Alpha group went in with gas masks, but Vympel group somehow went in without any. They thought that the gas wouldn’t reach the place where the unit would operate, but when they climbed the stairs they fell under the effect of the gas. Nine of them were hospitalized. Fortunately, they were hospitalized in a special poison control center, the 33rd Hospital. What we can't understand is why only 5 hostages were brought to this hospital. Why did the Sklifosovsky learn that hostages were coming in only when the buses showed up out front? This is also not very clear. Let me remind you, they used a substance based on derivatives of fentanyl. To be clearer, these derivatives have well-known forensic names: crack, Chinese white, china-white, that's what was used. The gas didn't have the desired effect of immobilizing the terrorists. The investigation established that they returned fire with 13 assault rifles and 8 pistols. Count how many of the 40 terrorists were without weapons. Naturally, it turns out that all (who had weapons) opened fire. They weren't put to sleep, none of them were. And the situation was very scary, because to start using gas was a provocation. The gas had color, and there was a smell. Many of the hostages who were asleep in the usual, what we call biological sleep, woke up from the acrid odor. What is it? A provocation? This still remains a question. The government is only now beginning to acknowledge it as a primary cause, the use of this composite narcotic drug as a cause of pathology. But it took 8 years for us to prove that we were right.

K. LARINA — Dmitry, as far as your council, is it large? How many people are in your coordinating council?

D. MILOVIDOV — We have a regional public organization. As a matter of fact, the former hostages left for 46 different cities.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — Around the world, why? And the British, Germans and in Holland…

D. MILOVIDOV – Over there some people, thank God, can get competent medical assistance, while, like in the tale about the left-handed man, we get taken to a hospital where we can die regardless of rank. Fairy tales are eternal for a reason. We can't open membership of our organization to people from other regions. This is because of our status. But, of course, we write them and keep in touch. It is a sad cargo — on that day 200 were transported to 35 cities. Well, how is it for someone who lives somewhere in Snezhinsk, in Lesosibirsk, have you ever even heard such place names? Where could he or she receive adequate medical care? At the same time, the then governor of Chelyabinsk had on hand 5 families, some of whom lost loved ones, well, that is, some of them were held hostage, yet he bothered to appeal to President Putin proposing the adoption a law on the status of «injured in a terrorist attack», a law that could legally assist them. He only had 5, and yet he did this. Luzhkov has several hundred. Putin has 20,000 officially recognized victims of terror attacks. But nothing is done. It should also be said that, besides Roshal and Kobzon, the Order of Courage was awarded to four of the hostages — three posthumously. Why are these examples of civilian achievement not promoted by the government, and not reported? Because…

K. LARINA — Because of this topic doesn't even exist. Come on, we already started with this. I'm for beginning the broadcast naturally. I opened it in hopes of seeing something, a television program next week. I understand it's now the 23rd, it's understandable, and today was the beginning.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — There'll be Igor's movie, have you watched it? REN TV will show a film by Igor Prokopenko.

K. LARINA — Tell me when it is. On the 26th?

O. BARKOVSKAYA — I just can be wrong about the date, but on the 26th they will show a movie by Igor Prokopenko.

K. LARINA — Is it new?

O. BARKOVSKAYA — It's a new movie, yes.

K. LARINA — Well, thank you. Again it’s only Prokopenko and Barkovskaya, because as far as the federal stations, of course they’re completely silent. I don't know for sure if they'll report the memorial ceremony, they'll just mention it and that's all. But I want to remind you…

D. MILOVIDOV — Without commentary?

K. LARINA — Yes. After Nord-Ost there was Beslan, which…

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — Explosions in the subway…

K. LARINA — Explosions in the subway. And you can list a lot of tragedies at the beginning of the reign of Putin and then…

D. MILOVIDOV — 56 attacks in 2004. Then we lost count because some of the attacks were relabeled acts of hooliganism.

K. LARINA — Here, tell me, Dmitry, after all, maybe I don't understand, I don't understand why so our society is so passive, why no one, as in any other civilized country, requires answers to questions that accumulate more and more after each attack. Nobody gets any answers. They just get rudeness, or worse, they are mocked. Here in this case I mean the Beslan Mothers. Our national media have started to make a mockery of them, this story with Grobovoi and other things, right? I don't understand what is happening here with our people. Here I remember…

O. BARKOVSKAYA – We’re all hostages of information terrorism.

K. LARINA — Dmitry said that like the passive actors who don't have solidarity, a guild at least, who were at the play and very participate in the Memorial Book, why don't you bring your friends and colleagues to these events?

D. MILOVIDOV — They come.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — They come.

D. MILOVIDOV — They stand, and stood with us.

K. LARINA — We live in such a cynical country where if an event isn't on TV it didn't happen. After 8 years, that's a long time, there are already people for whom it's ancient history, maybe it happened, but nobody understands the gravity and horror of what happened back then in the city (of Moscow).

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — That's why I say that after it happened to me, I set myself the task of waking up, because we're basically bio-robots. We endlessly watch what they're telling us on TV, you know? Somehow we sincerely believe it, though if you turn on your brain and give it little thought, then everything falls into place. So we have such a society. We’re ruminants, you know? And, here, don't wait for what happened to me. Wake up and live a full life. Think about why you came into this world.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Well, clearly, that can't happen because everyone… we’re still, of course, bio-robots, but not just bio-robots. Every person is going through his or her tragedy. I know people who were also hostages at Nord-Ost, I know them very well, they don't want to come, they don't want to talk, because, well, simply because.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — Because it's the pain. You have to go through the pain; otherwise you won't be able to live. That's all.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Well, some can't, and to endure the pain en masse, well, they just don't want to.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — Then they need a psychologist.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Sometimes there are situations where psychologists don't help. You understand that perfectly.

K. LARINA — And there were some who signed non-disclosure agreements. Generally, do the agencies communicate with you?

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — They talked with me.

K. LARINA — How did this happen?

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — Just because I didn't go to the hospital. The next day two men in grey civilian clothes came into office. Such amazing people, you look at them and you just can't remember their faces. They listened very attentively to everything that I said, everything was recorded on tape, and they disappeared. But they never told me not to divulge anything. No, nothing like that ever happened.

M. PODLESNY — I must say that the state regularly… for example, I regularly receive letters, well, as regularly as once every six months, or sometimes once a year. I receive letters about the investigation being discontinued.

D. MILOVIDOV — Or reopened.

M. PODLESNY — Because following is a letter that the investigation of the case was reopened. That's all. And that relates to what you, Oksana, you were told about some who didn’t want to talk, or that it's such a trauma that some simply ignore it, it's crammed somewhere in there, on the inside, but life goes on. I can say that as far as for myself, I, for one, don't hush it up. If you ask me I'll talk about it. After the attack I had to talk about it a lot and had a lot of interviews. I felt that I just needed to speak out. But now I'll tell you that I go somewhere, like here, or even to my professional activities, for example, I walk into a theater or some other project, I just don’t bring it up… well, the musical Nord-Ost is on my resume, but I'm average, recently I try not to talk about it too much, because what I'm getting now, you know, there's this pseudo-sympathy, because people don't know, and what can I tell them? They weren't there, but I was. They're not to blame for the fact that they weren't there, right?

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — Thank God for that…

M. PODLESNY — And thank God I'm that I'm talking about it, but at the same time… there is the perception, yes, and that silence, people turn inside themselves and are pointedly very silent. There is the question of social rehabilitation, but the perception by society that people who…

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Yes, people look at hostages as if they were lepers, people from a different world.

M. PODLESNY — But the people who lived through it, not just those who came out of that auditorium alive, but there are still huge numbers of people whose relatives were there, and who no longer talk about parents and relatives who died there. I think they suffered more than even I did. Still, even among those who remained alive… For example, for all three days that you were there, there she is sitting at home, she can't find time for a little child who is with her at that time, and afterwards he needs medical help, that is, it’s necessary to see a neurologist, it’s necessary to see a psychologist, because for that child you represent three days of his mother sitting at home and crying nonstop. That child doesn't understand what goes on, right?

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Speaking only about society, yes, society must somehow…

M. PODLESNY — Wake up, as Marat puts it.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Wake up, yes. If society doesn't wake up in the media… it is clear that Nord-Ost, it is clear that Beslan will not include these stories in the latest books written on Russian history.

K. LARINA — They may even be recorded as successful operations.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — No, more likely they won’t even be recorded. I think that every parent is obliged to tell their child about how it was in our country that people died, that in rescuing 900 they killed 130, it's awful, it's in the center of Moscow, because Moscow then in fact is similar…

K. LARINA — It's that all Muscovites were held hostage by this criminal act back then. And because of this I'm afraid that people will speak about it less and less frequently, who knows what they'll write about our times, yes? But just imagine this situation anywhere in a European country or in America, it's a government crime that we are discussing today.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Well, in America, by the way, when there was September 11th, within two or three years there were the shows about how it was for each victim at that moment.

K. LARINA — For every person.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — Oksana, wait a minute, your problem has sort of touched me, that there are still … for some it gets worse and worse, whoever's listening to me, if it's really bad, if it’s really hard on you, then contact me, let's talk, let me use my example about how I extricated myself from this situation, I’ll try to help you as I best I can with what helped me, I really hope it’ll help you. If this is really needed by someone, I'll be happy to help.

K. LARINA — Yes, Dmitry, please.

D. MILOVIDOV — Let's start with ourselves. You may try to rely on society, but let's talk about ourselves. Who are we? We are either a unit of society, or not. Back then, according to opinion polls, the majority was for an assault, no matter what, whether the hostages were released or not. We still have some of the Orient in our blood. We want to be sacrificed. Once the victim is handed over then you can continue to graze.

K. LARINA — What kind of poll, and whose was it? There wasn't any survey taken.

D. MILOVIDOV — The Levada Center mentions some polls.

K. LARINA — When? Back then?

D. MILOVIDOV — It is related…

K. LARINA — No, that's nonsense. There were no polls, none, none.

D. MILOVIDOV — Of course, well, the press shows some, then comes psychological pressure. After all even former hostages…

K. LARINA — What could these moments have been? What could these polls have been? Such things can't be decided by a referendum.

D. MILOVIDOV — Remember that great movie «Kill the Dragon»?

K. LARINA — Yes.

D. MILOVIDOV — Well there, in the kitchen, we know who killed the dragon, but outside the kitchen we're talking about something else. It's the same with former hostages. We remember that the terrorists allegedly offered to let the hostages call their loved ones in order to organize a rally, but in reality it wasn't like that. A woman hostage in the audience stood up and said: why are we sitting here, let's do something. Barayev waved his hand: go ahead. But, here, under the influence of the press, former hostages in interviews said supposedly it was like that, but when they meet each other they say: how could it have been? We all know how it happened. They all say that.

K. LARINA — We should already wrap up today's difficult program. About Levada, of course, I'll say that now it just conducted a survey on the truth of the events at Nord-Ost, and, according to polls by the Levada Center, 74% don't believe the official version of the events at Dubrovka. I want to draw your attention to the fact that none of the state organizations conducted such a survey. It's only the Levada Center that could take such liberties. And my question is: where are the 74%? It's important to understand what was. So that it wouldn't ever happen, that's what Dmitry says. It happened, and for me it's important for today's program to remind you, dear friends, that it happened in your life just 8 years ago. All those who remember this, anyone who wishes to remember this, and all who have questions about it for the authorities, please come on the 26th, on Tuesday to Dubrovka, at what time?

D. MILOVIDOV — At 10 am.

K. LARINA — At 10 am. There will be a memorial service for the victims of the Nord-Ost. And thank you, good luck to you guys and enjoy many creative accomplishments, because you are all very talented and bright people. Thank you.

O. BARKOVSKAYA — Thank you.

M. ABDRAKHIMOV — Thank you.

M. PODLESNY — Thank you. All the best.

D. MILOVIDOV — Thank you.

Copyright: Radio Echo of Moscow