Иосиф Кобзон на церемонии памяти жертв теракта на Дубровке, 26 октября 2011

Speaking before the participants were relatives of the victims, as well as singer-parliament member Joseph Kobzon, who nine years ago participated in the rescue of women and children. Then the children's radio and television choir performed, as well as several well-known Russian musicians. After the commemorations, the abbot of the temple under construction near the theatrical center held a memorial service for the victims of the terrorist attack.

The organizers of the commemoration announced that they have put together a book dedicated to the victims of ‘Nord-Ost’. The book includes short stories about each of the one hundred and thirty who were killed during the capture of theater.

Secrets of the ‘Nord-Ost’ tragedy — 9 years later. We are now talking on this subject with Svetlana Gubareva, a former hostage, Alexander Cherkasov, a member of the board of the ‘Memorial’ human rights organization, and Elena Milashina, a columnist for ‘Novaya Gazeta’. Please tell us about this book that you are holding in your hands and that you showed to participants of today's commemoration.

Svetlana Gubareva: Here are the collected stories about those who were killed at ‘Nord-Ost’, written by their friends and relatives. These stories are all different, just like the people. Because the youngest that died but 11 years old, and life had only just begun, they did not leave a big mark in this life. The oldest was already retired and had the usual destiny. I, for one, was very pleased that we were able to gather all 130 stories, that there were no longer any blank spots. This has usually been considered to be a Moscow terrorist attack, but in fact it was not, because the hostages were from 22 countries — Austria, Australia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Georgia, Germany, Israel, Latvia, Netherlands, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, the U.S., Turkmenistan, Ukraine, France, Switzerland, and Yugoslavia. And the hostages that died were also international — there were representatives from 7 different countries. So we decided that the book should be in two languages.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: What circumstances of terrorist attack, in your opinion, still, after 9 years, need clarification or investigation?

Alexander Cherkasov: Generally speaking, all the circumstances of the terrorist attack need a normal investigation. First of all, because from the very beginning, starting with the collection of evidence, the same agencies that prepared and planned from the start an assault on the theatrical center were engaged in the investigation, which is a conflict of interest. The Federal Security Service prepared the counter-terrorist operation, and the Federal Security Service investigated it. What we end up with, from the collected evidence, are only materials that justify the decision from the very outset, the decision to storm the theater, materials that justify their refusal to negotiate in order to release at least some of the hostages, materials that justify the results of the assault — that the losses we ended up with were much less than the loss of all the hostages. It justifies the main purpose of the operation: not saving the lives of the 900 people who were at the theater, but destroying at any cost the terrorists who were there. And they paid this terrible price, at any cost. But now, after 9 years, it is impossible to repeat investigations that should have been done back then, but nowadays we still have to reach some conclusions.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: What questions do you have about the mechanism of the assault that remain unanswered?

Elena Milashina: I have questions not just about the assault, but some of my major questions are about the composition of the gas, the setup of the operational headquarters, who was in charge, who made the decision to use the gas, and exactly why was this decision made. This is because, as we now understand, the gas was completely ineffective and it is obvious to everyone that this gas had a causal link to the deaths of the hostages. I think that at the very least there should have been lessons learned on how to minimize hostage losses when one decides on an assault. Unfortunately, there were no lessons learned from ‘Nord-Ost’, and Beslan became a nightmarish sequel. By and large, the only lesson learned from ‘Nord-Ost’ by the authorities was the need, in every way, to absolve themselves of any responsibility for an assault and blame everything on the terrorists. This is because it is a huge lie that the terrorists blew up the school in Beslan and the assault started in response to this. It is simply not true. But I have more questions about how, in principle, the hostage taking in Moscow was even possible. How did the terrorists get to Moscow, how did they transport weapons and bombs, and who was responsible for this? We do not know anything. This is still, and will always be, a fundamental question as long as the authorities, or those who come to power later, do not respond. I think that this matter should be put to rest, not now, perhaps in 10 years, but in any case we must try to do this. The hostages and relatives of those who died are trying to do this. Their efforts are simply not enough, but to return to this issue and investigate it, we should not do this right now, but in a few years. I think this will happen.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Gennady Gudkov, deputy head of the Duma security committee and member of the 'Fair Russia' faction, still has no answers to critical questions.

Gennady Gudkov: The main mystery is: why there was no attempt made to take anyone alive? In my opinion, there was a possibility, but there was no order to take anyone alive. As far as those terrorists who were in the hall, I understand, they were shooting to defeat them and there was no doubt that a second's delay and everything could come crashing down from an explosion, and everyone would have died. No complaints there. But for 40 minutes, even longer, there was fighting on the second floor. Excuse, but here there was no longer any possibility of blowing up the entire hall, so they could have taken someone alive and found out what really went on, how they got through, how they snuck things in, who was involved, who legalized their documents, who helped and why it happened, what orders they had. I am deeply convinced that the orders were given from the outside. So, of course, there are questions that remain, but we will probably never get answers to these questions, or perhaps someday after there have been some big power shifts and changes in the country. So for now, even for me and for many of my colleagues on the security committee, not all of the questions have been answered.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: We are taking a question from Moscow resident Marina.

Listener: Hello. I want to say that after ‘Nord-Ost’ there have been so many of these terrible tragedies with Putin, and, of course, the scariest of them all is Beslan. Under his rule we will never know what happened, but after his reign, we are obliged to find this out. Only one man answered for everything, they poisoned people with gas, but only one man answered for it — Hitler. Putin should be held fully accountable for these terrible deaths that took place under his rule, and, worst of all, quite possibly, deaths that are yet to come. He has stuck his people everywhere and all these spies have failed. It is an absolutely terrible thing, people were gassed, and none of this must go unanswered.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: How did they later explain to you the need for this gas?

Svetlana Gubareva: They did not explain it. In the resolution written by the prosecutor's office, it says that a special substance was used against the terrorists, as if we, the hostages, were in another room. Moreover, the dose was calculated for an adult male, exceeding the norm. Accordingly, children and sick people were sentenced to death from the start, and the fact that people survived is not thanks to anyone, but in spite of them, purely by chance. And we can say that not only did they kill people by using the gas, they killed them through indifference. For example, Kristina Kurbatova, when she was brought to the hospital, it was not known whether or not she was alive, but the doctor did not want to go down there to check. As he later explained, inspecting dead bodies was not part of his duties. My daughter was taken by bus, people watching TV saw people loaded onto buses; it was inside one of these buses that my daughter was laying, on the floor. This bus had 30 people on board, and besides the hostages there were two people in camouflage uniforms and a journalist. Let us look at how the bus was loaded. The driver is sitting there, watching what is going on. He sees my daughter loaded onboard, and then comes another and they him on top of my daughter. Another comes along and is just as callously laid on top of him. My daughter was 13 years old and weighed 30 kilos (about 66 lbs — ed.)  On top of her were 3 adults. And so, after all the others were loaded, and after watching with indifference this whole pile, under which was laying my daughter, they drove to City Hospital number 1.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: What is your opinion, can the public learn any lessons if they get no answers and never find those guilty in every circumstance of the tragedy?

Alexander Cherkasov: The public cannot learn any lessons without making this experience their own, if they do not feel it. The authors of this book did a great deed — they did not allow the tragedy to become a statistic. You can read about each person. You know, there was only one journalist who wrote about ‘Nord-Ost’ so that others felt it did not happen on another planet, and that was Politkovskaya. You read many of her articles and unconsciously you begin to identify with the subject of these articles. This is not one of the qualities of our style of journalism. Maybe it is not one of the qualities of Moscow, I do not know, in Moscow if you ask anyone, either that person knows someone who was at ‘Nord-Ost’, or knows someone who knows someone who was held hostage. But this was not a cause for grief in Moscow. Today, and a year ago, the square in front of the theater had a lot of empty places. Now it is beginning build up, not very noticeably, but still, it is not like this in Beslan, perhaps, or in Paris. We live as if this does not concern us. In order to learn, you have to want to learn. Perhaps this book will help, and the report prepared in 2006, ‘Nord-Ost, investigation incomplete’, which is available on the site that Svetlana Gubareva runs, Nord-Ost.org. Read it, this work it is very well done, and the relatives of the hostages and captives did it all, not human rights activists or anyone else. The question is: why are people abandoned in their grief? As long as it does not affect every one of us, for some reason we think it is happening on another planet. And to expect that Putin will go away all on his own and then we will find everything out, well, sorry, but that is bizarre.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Sergey Goncharov is in the Moscow city parliament from the ‘United Russia’ faction and president of the association of ‘Alpha’ special operation group veterans. He is confident that there are no blanks left in the events 9 years ago.

Sergei Goncharov: It is hard to tell what secrets could remain, since the operation was examined from beginning to end. I do not think that any mysteries remain; all that remains are the feelings of tragedy that still manifest themselves. We have been there for every anniversary. What happened was we were unable to save 133 people — this is the tragedy. And as to whether there are any mysteries remaining or being hidden by the special services, I do not think so. In this situation, everything was made known that needed to be. All that remains is the grief, and the misery. That is all that remains in this situation.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Has it been evident, during these past 9 years, the opposition of government agencies to a truly independent elucidation of the truth?

Elena Milashina: You see that a pro-government person says that everything is clear, yet I am someone who finds little to be clear about ‘Nord-Ost’. I know that there were 130 people killed, but only 5 of them were shot by the terrorists and of the rest, 72 of them died without any medical assistance. This is in the criminal case documents. I do not know who gave the order to carry out an assault. I do not know the formula of the gas. I do not know why it was even necessary. I do not know how the terrorists got to the center of Moscow, and who was guilty of this. I have already said that I do not know, and I consider these to be key questions. Everything is clear to Comrade Goncharov. It does no good to lie: you were not on the square (in front of the theater) this year, and you were not there last year or the year before. I have been there every year. This memorial ceremony has been held from 10 to 12 on the 26th of October, every year and you were not there. By this I mean Goncharov, for whom everything is clear.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: In addition, every member of the Moscow city parliament got a medal, and if you remember, he was one of these city parliament members 9 years ago. We are listening to Muscovite Alexander Georgiyevich.

Listener: Good evening, I have three quick questions for the person who was a witness, who was among the hostages. My first question: how did the terrorists treat you, what did they talk about, and what did they not talk about? Second, have you turned to any international institutions after all this, or not? And my third question: have the authorities, other than the honorable Kobzon, only he has been helping, has anyone been helping you? And a question for 'Novaya Gazeta': are you doing any kind of an investigation?

Svetlana Gubareva: How was it in the auditorium? It was scary. The worst thing for me was that my child was sitting next to me and I could not do anything to save her life. We all think that should our family, God forbid, be affected by something like this, if someone makes an attempt on their life, that you would tear him to shreds, that you would not let it happen. But here you sit and you absolutely cannot do a thing. And of course, they kept the hall in fear. Because so many people could only be held in place by fear, they frightened us. They frightened us by threatening to start shooting unless the government negotiated. Later they got somewhat nicer, but later they frightened us once more. Depending on what was said on the radio, they had portable radios and in some cases even a TV set, depending on what was said by the media, that changed their mood. When the radio said that blood was flowing in the aisles, Basayev said: “See how they lie? Who here is killing you?” When the hostage taking took place in Budennovsk, the whole time I tried to imagine how terrible it would be to be held hostage, but nothing in my imagination about how it might be could even compare with how it actually was.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: The listener asked if you sought international medical assistance?

Svetlana Gubareva: I did not seek international medical assistance. Since I am a citizen of Kazakhstan, Russia is already international assistance. At the same time, however, three times they refused to hospitalize me, while at the same time they were afraid to close my medical file since they might close it, write that I was healthy and then here I might suddenly up and die.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Who is still assisting, other than what is widely known?

Svetlana Gubareva: As far as the book, it was published with the support of the Moscow city government. With regard to assistance, in the regions from where the hostages came, depending on the authorities' attitude toward the problem, some places are better, some places are worse. In some places they remember the people and undertake measures to assist. In Moscow they recently passed a resolution that allows former hostages a free course of treatment in a health resort. It varies.

Alexander Cherkasov: I am now calling on those who can provide assistance. You see, mainly in Moscow, but not just in Moscow, there are, firstly, many hundreds of people who survived exposure to a still unknown toxic substance, and they are in need of regular medical care and for this we need money. Secondly, I am sorry, there were dozens of children who were orphaned in the terrorist attack, and they also need help. So, if there are any rich people, or poor people willing to send money… There is no systematic assistance for the victims of the terrorist attack, since the gas was harmless, who is to blame? The blame is all on the terrorists. Secondly, apparently, the question was not only about international medical assistance, but also about appealing to the international agencies. Svetlana, perhaps, can talk about the case in Strasbourg.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Joseph Kobzon, the singer and one of those who helped the hostages to stop being embarrassed, does not feel entitled to judge the organizers of the assault.

Joseph Kobzon: It is hard for me to say if they did everything, because they did not know what to do. For them this tragedy was unexpected. They did not know how to deal with it. The law enforcement agencies and medical institutions were involved, and the mayor, Yuri Mikhailovich Luzhkov, he was there around the clock. Everything was done, but they did not know the nature of the struggle with this tragedy. The command was given to do an assault after everyone was already poisoned, and they did not know what kind of gas or how to save themselves. They did not know a lot of things. There were a lot of people and that hindered transport and the ambulances. You can talk after the fact about how everything that could have been done was done, but ignorance and incompetence led to the tragedy, and the fact that all of the terrorists were destroyed was, in my opinion, wrong. We should have left a few of them left alive so that we might have found out the nature of the conflict and draw lessons from it.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Can you tell us about the fate of your complaint to the Strasbourg Court of Human Rights?

Svetlana Gubareva: Back in 2003, April 26th, 2003, we filed a complaint with the Strasbourg court, assuming that there would not be a quality investigation. The past years have shown that it this was indeed true. The main complaint is about the right to life. I personally believe that my family was denied the right to life. I hate it when they say that they did everything that they could. When a child on a bus has bodies tossed on top of her, was this all they could do? When, three hours after the assault, they go to check on my fiancé to see if he is dead, was this is all they could do? And among the dead hostages, more than half have autopsy reports that state that that medical care was not provided. So what was that they were able to do? What are one thousand people in a city of many millions? If they could not manage to provide timely assistance, and did everything that they could, I do not understand the statement.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: The listener asked: are the journalists able to do their own investigation?

Elena Milashina: You know we had to investigate, and it was primarily done by Anna Politkovskaya while she was alive, we knew, mainly we were helped by the relatives, they investigated. And this was intensified when the relatives of the victims got access to materials from the criminal case. Now the investigation has come to the point that there are questions about which even Strasburg cannot get a response from the Russian government. All these questions I have already repeated in this program. The Russian position, the position of the Russian government, is the same as that voiced by Joseph Davidovich Kobzon, to whom I am grateful for the fact that every year he comes and remembers, and he made a wonderful speech at the commemoration. But their position is: “We did everything we could, we are not to blame, we did not want, we did not know, and we could not and we did not prepare. This is our internal matter, these are terrorists, and we do not negotiate with terrorists.” It is simply that these same people in their ignorance, inexperience, and unwillingness to save had only the desire to kill the terrorists and stop this political challenge to Putin. It was awkward when this situation took place in the center of Moscow, the capital of Russia. It was necessary to get rid of this situation quickly, by any means, and at any cost. These are the very people who by secret decree were made heroes of the Russian Federation, namely Patrushev’s deputy, Pronichev, a general, and General Tikhonov, who led the operation to storm ‘Nord-Ost’. Then they all came to Beslan and did exactly the same thing, and once again they say: “We knew nothing, we could not, we would not, please excuse us, this is our internal matter. We will not say anything and no one is liable.” This is so sophomoric.

This is a position that really does not lend itself to understanding. All the issues are clear. It is clear that they are hiding something, and even if they did tell us the secret formula for the gas, this would still not cancel out the fact that the gas killed hostages and no one could give a damn. The most important point: “We do not negotiate with terrorists, we do not save anyone, we just kill. If you become a hostage in the Russian Federation, you cease to be a citizen of the Russian Federation and the Constitution no longer applies to you.” It is this criminally insane principle that has in fact been brought to us by that well-known man, Vladimir Putin, and he must bear full responsibility, in life, after death, but all the same he will bear responsibility for it, because this is a crime against humanity. Negotiations at ‘Nord-Ost’ were possible, as Joseph Davidovich Kobzon by his personal involvement in this has proven. Today he told how it happened, how you might put it, as he said, with these Chechen kids, and he knows the real the causes of this conflict, as he puts it, namely this terrorist act, why they came and took hostages in Moscow: because there is war in Chechnya. You could negotiate with them, and there were a lot of negotiators at ‘Nord-Ost’, but no one wanted negotiations. They did not want to meet the terrorists' real demands, stopping the war in Chechnya would be very difficult, but at least they could have done a ceasefire in Chechnya while there were hostages, more than 900 people, in central Moscow. This was quite possible. No, right at that time there were military operations going on in Chechnya.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Ruslan Martagov is a former consultant for the Anti-terror Foundation, and he suspects the presence of powerful forces behind the terrorists.

Ruslan Martagov: For me one thing is very clear — this was a provocation, and it was not without the participation of security services. The fact is, given the saturation of intelligence networks in the North Caucasus, such a large-scale operation could never have escaped the notice of our security services. The fact that they were not stopped back then, that it was not nipped in the bud, this means that the security services were interested in seeing this provocation take place. For me there is something else that is even more absolutely clear: they were not going to blow up ‘Nord-Ost’, and that instead of explosives they had some other substance entirely. This is also absolutely clear. What remains unclear is who profited from all this, and who was interested in it.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: In your opinion, was it possible to negotiate?

Alexander Cherkasov: Of course, for the release of the hostages there was a need to negotiate, at least for a partial release of hostages to facilitate a subsequent assault and reduce potential losses. I remind you that in Budennovsk they succeeding in reducing the number of hostages through negotiations, from more than fifteen hundred down to one hundred and fifty volunteers who were left behind and then escorted the terrorists back to Chechnya. I note that even before Putin there were these volunteer hostages who replaced those who were in the hospital, they began to draw up a paper: “I am so and so and I volunteer to join Basayev’s gang, realizing the possible consequences.” The fact is that back then, and in Budennovsk and in Kizlyar and Pervomaisk, the main objective from the outset was to destroy the terrorists. They planned for an assault from the very start, and all the negotiations were just a cover to prepare for it. It was not Putin who came up with this. It is the system. Did you not know that?  And Goncharov with his joyous statements that everything is clear comes from that system.

Kobzon says: “They did not know what to do.” Here the question is not about knowledge, here the question is about values and priorities. If the values are human life, the lives of citizens, then the priority is the liberation of the hostages, not the destruction of the terrorists. You know, somewhere around 80 of the dead hostages died about 20 minutes after the gas was put into operation, and not hours later when they were dragged out. The order not to take anyone alive also comes from here. I do not want anyone to think that I am talking about the participants in the assault — these were heroic people who went in knowing that the building could fall down on them after an explosion. But hiding behind their backs now are those who planned for just such a scenario: to destroy the terrorists at all costs. They received the medals and now consider themselves to be the pride of Russia. It turns out that the heroism, the real achievements of the commandos who went into the theater, has been sullied by this lie and sullied by those who wear generals' epaulets. But negotiations in Kizlyar, there they were also able to replace more than two thousand hostages for about a hundred and fifty volunteers, but all the same, afterwards on both occasions there were orders to destroy the terrorists together with the hostages. And there, and there, and after Kizlyar, and after Budennovsk, it failed primarily due to the incompetence of the security services. It is a question of priorities. What is more important for us: the prestige of Russia — we do not negotiate, or the lives of Russian citizens? This is the main thing.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: The writer Eduard Limonov is the chairman of the executive committee of the 'Other Russia' party. He still believes in the inevitability of the triumph of justice.

Eduard Limonov: This “liberation” of course, demands the punishment of the perpetrators, since there were 133 to 174 people killed, according to various data. Of course they died from the use of this unknown gas, and the security forces used it. Actually it would be wrong to demand accountability from the commandos, but from those commanders who gave the command. I think that the order was given at the very top of the government. We must demand accountability. Any responsible government that comes to power, it certainly should appoint an investigation into the “liberation” of hostages at Dubrovka, and investigate Beslan and the submarine ‘Kursk’. There are some terrible episodes in our recent history that need to be worked out, and we need to work out who is responsible for them.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: We will hear a question from the Smolensk region, from radio listener Lyudmila Ivanovna.

Listener: Good evening, first of all, this case still pains us deep in our hearts, even though we are seemingly strangers. I hope, and I am elderly, I hope that I will live to see the day when someone at the top of the government, and those who performed these acts, are not rewarded, but tried as criminals, if not before an international court, then at least by our own Russian one. The comrade who explained that this could have been a provocation organized by the secret services, he already answered my question. I have already received an answer. You are nice people and it is not hard to wish you good health and all, but keep up the fight. May God grant you the strength.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Next year it will be 10 years since the tragedy. What do you think, will the ball get rolling with this renewed investigation, and will the perpetrators be named?

Svetlana Gubareva: Of course not. The investigation is at a low intensity, being conducted by a single investigator, and he is neither searching for those who ordered it, nor those who organized it. What is a group of terrorists? It is not like we can just sit down and talk and say: “Come on, let’s grab some theater.” This was all planned in advance. It was funded. It was organized. The terrorists were all killed, so you cannot ask them anything, but finding those who financed and organized this — that is possible. You just have to want to find them. Judging by the way the investigation relates to this, there is no desire to find neither the culprits, nor the organizers.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Are you satisfied with the theory as to how the terrorists got into the theater building, how they got to Moscow, and under what “protection” they acted?

Elena Milashina: There are no theories. Like Sveta put it, they really did not investigate the planners or the organizers or those who let it all happen, or anything of the sort. It is a completely incomprehensible situation. There are only questions. Questions from the hostages, questions from the relatives of the dead, questions from journalists who still remember. Without the support of the public, not just words like: “Thank you, we are with you ‘Nord-Ost’.” We must show the government that we are together. Why was there a ‘Nord-Ost’, a Volgodonsk, or the apartment bombings in Moscow? There are, in general, no organizations, no people who remember these terrorist attacks. No one who is trying to somehow show that they are still alive and that there are victims who have buried their friends. Beslan is the only terrorist attack that differs from ‘Nord-Ost’ and the other forgotten ones. I cannot imagine that Mr. Mansurov, the head of North Ossetia, would not come to Beslan on September 1st and 3rd and stand next to the families of the victims and the former Beslan hostages, or not go inside the gym and not look at the pictures and not lay a wreath. I am just amazed that neither the previous, nor the current mayor of Moscow, consider it shameful to not appear in the square, to not come and just stand next to the people. This was their terrorist attack, this is their territory, and these are Muscovites. And all the other people, after all, this was in the center of Moscow, in Moscow, where millions of people live. Where are these millions? I have this feeling that on this day the whole of Moscow dies, or that it has moved to another planet. Today it was a terrible scene, when the small crowd on the square at Dubrovka began to disperse, and there were the candles on the steps and the pictures, people bring photos of their dead loved ones put candles next to them. And here when the crowd began to disperse and everyone in the crowd began picking up their pictures. It has become abundantly clear that the people that remember only do so because it was their loved ones that were killed, and the rest of Moscow could care less.

Svetlana Gubareva: You know, what I found striking today were these two girls, Masha and Sofia. They came to take books, and I asked: “Were you or someone close to you there?” They said: “No, we live nearby.” I am grateful to them to the point of tears.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: How do you explain the callousness or indifference of the city authorities?

Alexander Cherkasov: This is not about the authorities — the authorities do what we allow them, what Muscovites and the residents of our vast country allow them. It all started with a lie. Before Basayev came to Moscow with his terrorists, among other things, twice, at the very least, they reported him killed, and none other than Colonel Podoprigora, PR for the joint task force, stated this. A remarkable man, he later wrote a couple of screenplays that came out during the latest Putin elections in 2004, about how wonderfully we were winning the war in Chechnya. It began with a lie. A lie, where no one controls the government, no one controls the investigation, where the main task of the investigation is not finding out what really went on, not finding out who the victims are in the fight against terrorism, not giving access to medical case histories, and so on. Who was it that tried to stir up trouble during the investigation? Politkovskaya, and Markelov, who was a lawyer in at least two of the cases, for the mother of the deceased in the Masha Panova case, and he rode herd on the investigators so that the families of the hostages were able to get access to materials from the case file. By the way, Serkhoyeva hired him immediately after the terrorist attack. The Chechen woman had gone to see the musical, but since she was Chechen, instead of finding out what happened, she was sent straight from her bed in intensive care to a prison hospital. It is so easy to deal with Chechens. Back then Stas Markelov was able to get her back in the hospital before she regained consciousness. There are not a lot of journalists and lawyers such as these.

You know that this lie is only possible in an atmosphere of great collective ignorance. How wonderful, Goncharov talked about the 133 hostages, today there were 130. And they are also saying 174. We know all the names, now there is this book. When it comes to remembrance, memory is not an end in itself — it is so that such things never happen again. But this has not become a memory for our city. It has not become a memory for our country. There has already been a case in the history of our planet when a distant war, going on somewhere deep in the mountains and not affecting the capital, suddenly it came to the capital, and it turned out that the brave fighters against terrorism, when they were not fighting in the mountains, but in the capital, were not very good at it. Then the people rose up, and the colonel who governed the country, at first they beat the hell out of him, and then they put him in a prison cell. The country, however, is called, sorry, Peru, and Alberto Fujimori and his security services are now being held responsible. Responsible, in particular, for the way they did not protect their citizens from terrorists, but fought for power and clung to power by any means possible. Why is Peru not Russia? Perhaps we have yet to learn from this experience, but the main thing is that this huge step has been taken. Not turning a strategy into a statistic, including every name, separately, this is a very big job. We have the book that was presented today and a site where you can try to remember what we have without myths and conspiracy theories. The question is, what conclusions will each of us reach, and what actions will follow from these conclusions. This year there is not a lot of talk about ‘Nord-Ost’ for one simple reason: an accounting of the leadership of this country for last 12 years when these terrorist attacks became possible, an accounting for having failed to protect citizens, taking away their civil rights. This needs to be done. Dare we even ask?

Svetlana Gubareva: I would like to say that we should not think that, in general, any country can prevent, can completely preclude, the possibility of a terrorist attack. These occur in various countries. It is quite another thing how the state, how the authorities respond to these attacks, what conclusions they draw, how they help the victims survive. And here, of course, Russians have a huge problem before them — they are simply forgotten. Terrorist attacks in Russia affect not only the citizens of Russia, but also foreign citizens, and these are also overlooked. They are forgotten in Russia, just like anyone else, and they do not receive assistance from the country in which they live, because it was not in their country that they suffered in a terrorist attack, but in Russia. This is a serious problem. Of course, it cannot but cause regret and disappointment that the Russian president has never once expressed condolences to the relatives of those killed, neither Beslan, nor ‘Nord-Ost’, nor any other terror attack a year or two or three or five years later. They just forget and erase it and that is it. This indifference, too, applies to every resident of the country. When the terrorists were in the auditorium, sitting next to me and talking, they got into small groups and were talking with each other, someone pulled money out from his pocket and said: “That's all that’s left. They stopped us on the way. I paid one ten rubles, and another 20.” I am sitting nearby and I am thinking that my life, those who let them get by did it for a ten-ruble note. They sold us, all one thousand of us, for ten rubles. And it is frightening.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: What can people who care to oppose this official unconsciousness?

Elena Milashina: A lot. Just stand there, be out on the square in front of the Dubrovka theatrical center on October 26th at 10 am. And if it is important to, if you are truly worried, if you do not want this to happen again, and have it happen to you – then come. This year you did not manage to do this, but you are Russia.

On Radio ‘Svoboda’ (Liberty)
October 26th, 2011
http://www.svobodanews.ru/content/transcript/24372000.html

Be first to comment this article

Write Comment
Please keep the topic of messages relevant to the subject of the article. Personal verbal attacks will be deleted. Please don't use comments to plug your web site. Such material will be removed. Just ensure to *Refresh* your browser for a new security code to be displayed prior to clicking on the 'Send' button. Keep in mind that the above process only applies if you simply entered the wrong security code.
Name:
E-mail
Homepage
Title:
Comment:
Code:*
	I wish to be contacted by email regarding additional comments

Powered by AkoComment Tweaked Special Edition v.1.4.6
AkoComment © Copyright 2004 by Arthur Konze — www.mamboportal.com
All right reserved