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«These were strange terrorists»
Written by Ìàðê Ðîçîâñêèé   
×åòâåðã, 23 Îêòÿáðü 2003

http://www.bomond.com/interview/?id=20

"To hell with such a sovereignty"

Bykov: Mark Grigorevich, after the publication of your autobiography it seemed to me that you had forgiven the terrorists. You even forgave them what I think was the most terrible, the humiliation of forcing you to hold a demonstration…
Rozovsky: As far as the humiliation, you are probably correct, though the slogans of this demonstration reflected my own convictions. Sasha called me and said: "If you don't go demonstrate on
Red Square they will kill all of us." She said it this way. Not 'blow up' but 'kill'.

So I went there demanding an end to the war in Chechnya, but I really did wish an end to this war, so it didn't take a lot to force me to do so. They wouldn't let us enter Red Square; they said that the demonstration was unsanctioned. Now that was really sophisticated mockery. At that time I knew that the decision to make an assault had beenmade.

Do you believe that it could have been avoided?
Certainly. I think that, had there been real explosives there, the risk was unjustifiably great. Let's say that one or another of the terrorists was too scared to connect the wires to set off their explosives, but how about the other forty? The only way to get them to release the hostages was to holdtalks.

Unsatisfactory, Mark Grigorevich. The Barayev people demanded the army pull out.
We would've done this eventually anyway! It was only necessary to promise that
Russia would leave Chechnya; we were condemned anyway in due course…

But how can you not see the difference? It's one matter to leave as a matter of course, but a different one entirely to leave when a terrorist demands it.
Ah! You're worried about the nation's prestige! Why doesn't it worry about us when a war is going on? A dirty, pointless war, and yet somehow necessary to someone. Why aren't you worried that supporting our nation's prestige is always somehow connected with a crazy, monstrous waste of human lives?

Have you seen a nation that could be defended without a risk to life?
To hell with such sovereignty and such prestige! Damn them both if we have to pay for them constantly with lives! If your relatives had been there you would've acted exactly the same as I did.

I don't know, but now your relatives, thank God, are safe, and yet it's as if you're defending Barayev and those with him anyway.
I'm defending? My God. They were terrorists; there is no doubt about that. And further, I'm very thankful to the 'Alpha' troops who carried out the assault… Yes, thankful? That's not the right word — I'm ready to get on my knees before the unknown soldier who carried my Sashka unhurt from the building. Kristina Kurbatova and Arseny Kurilenko were sitting alongside her and they died, but my daughter was saved by a miracle. I have a lot of questions about 'Nord-Ost', however, and I still haven't gotten any answers. The fact is these terrorists weren't ordinary ones. For one thing, I'm not convinced that an assault was necessary. The Barayev people had no intention of blowing up the DK (theatrical center): they seized it and then later these games started. There's no need to attribute intentions to them, that they wanted kill everyone whatever the cost. The statistics in this matter are terrible: 129 people died from our own actions. The Barayev people killed one person — that unfortunate, drunk girl, Romanova, who, by the way, strangely managed to get inside. I was there on the first night; a fly couldn't have gotten into the DK or headquarters. My theory is that they let her in on purpose. Something along the lines of, let her go start something, let 'em kill her! This, incidentally, was Barayev's worst mistake, that they killed her. But she was drunk, at first they covered this up, but she went in there and started to yell at them. They told her 'get out!' but she cussed them out even more. Then they shot her. These were bandits with whom you don't argue.

They even broke some of her fingers at first. It's clear why she really swore at them.
I repeat: no one can make them out to be sweet and nice, but who let her in there?

Mark Grigorevich! Well, why does one have to see conspiracies everywhere? I was there all three nights and in complete peace I passed the inner barricades, while our photographer got into headquarters and was stunned at this.
Well, that means he showed his identification to someone.

What ID? He just up and went.
No one would let me in, even though I went to offer to switch places with my daughter.


«Barayev needed for everyone to see how they killed him»

You say 'conspiracy'. Perhaps you believe, as some other people do, that the whole 'Nord-Ost' matter was one big FSB conspiracy?
Well no, I don't think so, because such an assumption would require completely different actions from me. This is, after all, not simply intellectual speculation; it would be my responsibility to accuse the authorities of such a sin. But the authorities are guilty in this because they didn't wish to stop the war. Their second sin is that they lied an awful lot about it all. One can't lie about such things! Look for yourself: the assault supposedly started because Barayev started shooting hostages. So where are these executed hostages, these heroes? Why was there no nation-wide televised funeral, why did they never tell the country the names of these first victims? Because Barayev didn't shoot anyone on the night of the assault. The shooting started on the first floor of the building, Sashka heard it for thirty seconds before she fell asleep. If he had planned to start shooting hostages, he'd have announced this live on the air. After all, this was his main means of blackmail! But for some reason, whenever he was given to speak, he spoke about everything except this.

Let's assume, we haven't seen everything…
But if they had really made such a threat, then why would the authorities hide this? After all, this is the main, if not the only, reason for the assault! Talk about how Barayev wanted to shoot the hostages started only in the evening of the second day, when Primakov left the DK and couldn't agree to anything. What kind of terrorists were these to change their plans so? No, just looking Barayev in the eye on tape I could tell that this was no ordinary terrorist. This wasn't a murderer, but a suicide-martyr.

Who for some reason wished to receive death accompanied by twelve hundred people, including women and children. Too bad this couldn't have gone on in some uninhabited place, let him cover himself in explosives and blow himself up as a sign of protest against the war!
No, as a director I understand what he was thinking. He wanted something completely different. He needed for everyone to see how they killed him. He went to 'Nord-Ost' to die, but not to kill. He and these girls wanted to whole world to see how they were treated.

Excuse me, but the whole world treats them this way! Terror is terror…
I've already said that this was no ordinary terror. Why lie and say that they treated the spectators in some ultra-harsh fashion, or that they didn't let the children stand up. Sasha was there. They gave the kids candy from the snack bar. Were there incidents? There were. And they let them go to the bathroom every two hours. I'm not making excuses for them, you see, I'm just saying that these people came to die, but not to kill. As far as the explosives… Do you know when they let the correspondents in to shoot the auditorium? At about 8. Sashka was already in the hospital, she was taken there at
, and I found out thanks to Roshal. But the assault started at 5 and lasted three or five minutes, no more. So what did they do there between 6 and 8? Why didn't they show the explosives right away? I'm a director; I saw the picturesque poses they'd placed the dead Barayev people in. I know how a fallen, how a dead person lays, and how they put them on stage for effectiveness… And yet there is something I can't understand: why didn't the medics go in the auditorium right away? After all, carrying the sleeping hostages out from the booby-trapped auditorium was probably riskier and harder than injecting everyone with the antidote right away! No, they carried them out, and many were carried out incorrectly and because of this there were deaths. No way you can consider such an assault a victory!


«The FSB brazenly allows acts of terror»

Are you sad that 'Nord-Ost' has stopped?
Yes, of course it's a shame. It was a beautiful play, but, perhaps, they could never perform it again in that same building, because people would have continued to be afraid to go there. They'd have continued to be afraid because they knew that it could happen again. What did this act of terror do for
Chechnya? Nothing. The war didn't stop. What did this so-called victory do for Russia? Again, nothing. Everyone was afraid and is still afraid, and understands that there are no guarantees. It's a curse, you understand? A universal spiritual curse, under conditions where you can't even talk about guarantees, security, safety…

But Mark Grigorevich! This spiritual curse is because people aren't ready to fight back, since they value nothing more than their own lives. That they are ready not just to go demonstrate on orders of the terrorists — that's fine, who will reproach them for this? But to justify these demands after the fact?
Ah! You want real spiritual resistance, like back during the war. But you after all know very well that this is no real war. It's some kind of a game, one very necessary to someone. A war in which everyone is lying. In which the FSB brazenly allows acts of terror like those in
Moscow, in 1999, in Tushino, Dubrovka, and Mozdok… What have they ever prevented? They found a weapons warehouse? What are they doing in general, what is their notorious counter-terrorism activity? No one's able to catch Maskhadov…

And no one's caught Bin-Laden.
Bin-Laden has his millions, but what does Maskhadov have? You compare! Really, can't you see how many lies have been twisted about this war? And after this you want the country to have some patriotic uprising and for everyone to get ready to sacrifice their life? Their life and their children's?

Here I agree with you completely. There can't be heroism in such a war.
Then why are we all putting up with this war? After all, one can't exploit the patriotic rhetoric to the end, then the understanding of what 'Motherland' means would lose all value! But the Motherland isn't fighting — she is playing games and entombing her own children.

Has Sasha changed after 'Nord-Ost'?
It's like radiation. Like 
Chernobyl. It passes through you, but when and how it will show up is unknown. The doctors say that she has great inner resources and that she will recover rather quickly… But here I offered her a role in 'Perfume' by Susskind; I'm doing this musical. But she refused: «I don't want to be a victim anymore.» The medics know that a soldier in a victorious army, his wounds heal faster. But the wounds of 'Nord-Ost' still haven't healed, so this means that is was no victory.
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